The Book of Abraham: From Whence was it Derived?

[_Buffalo]

http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_8.html

[_wenglund]

Could you be more specific? Your links talk of general themes. Is there anything specific you'd like to point out that Joseph couldn't possibly have known through his studies? Wade?

The quoted portions of the linked article by Dr. Peterson are specific enough. Here, so far, are the specifics:

1. Abraham's father turned aside from worshipping the true God to worship the god of pharoah.

2. Abraham's father and ancestors worshipped false gods and "Abraham’s faithfulness in worshipping the true God, as well as his attempts to convert his family."

3. "...the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham (Abr. 1:6, 13, 17; facsimile 1, figs. 5–8)."

4. "...the ensemble of four figures depicted as figure 6 of Facsimile 2 could indeed “represent this earth in its four quarters” in the ancient world, as the explanation to the facsimile in the book of Abraham says."

5. "...figure 11 of facsimile 1 as “designed to represent the pillars of heaven, as understood by the Egyptians.”

6. "...The angled lines below the lion couch in facsimile 1 are identified as “the firmament over our heads” (fig. 12)."

Here is another extract from Dr. Peterson's article:

One noteworthy element of the religious situation portrayed in the book of Abraham is the identification of a crocodile as “the idolatrous god of Pharaoh.” (Facsimile 1, fig. 9.) Although this may have seemed strange in Joseph Smith’s day, discoveries in other ancient texts confirm this representation. Unas or Wenis, for example, was the last king of the fifth dynasty (circa 2356–2323 B.C.), and his pyramid still stands at Saqqara, south of modern Cairo. Utterance 317 of Unas’s Pyramid Texts includes the following: “The King Appears as the Crocodile-God Sobk,” and “Unas has come today from the overflowing flood; Unas is Sobk, green-plumed, wakeful, alert. … Unas arises as Sobk, son of Neith.” 9 One scholar observes that “the god Sobk is … viewed as a manifestation of Horus, the god most closely identified with the kingship of Egypt” during the Egyptian Middle Kingdom era (circa 2040–1640 B.C.), which includes the time period that tradition indicates as Abraham’s lifetime." 10

10. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 1:201.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Here is another specific issue mentioned in Dr. Peterson's article:

"The book of Abraham tells of an attempt by idolatrous priests to sacrifice the young Abraham. (Abr. 1:7–20; facsimile 1.) Although the Bible says nothing of such an episode, postbiblical literature repeatedly mentions Abraham’s miraculous deliverance from an attempt to kill him. 11 Recently a reference has been found in a third-century A.D. Egyptian papyrus which associates the name of Abraham with a lion-couch scene like that in facsimile 1. 12

12. John Gee, “References to Abraham Found in Two Egyptian Texts,” Insights: An Ancient Window, September 1991, pp. 1, 3; John Gee, Ensign, July 1992, pp. 60–62.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Buffalo]

Could you be more specific? Your links talk of general themes. Is there anything specific you'd like to point out that Joseph couldn't possibly have known through his studies? Wade?

The quoted portions of the linked article by Dr. Peterson are specific enough. Here, so far, are the specifics:

1. Abraham's father turned aside from worshipping the true God to worship the god of pharoah.

2. Abraham's father and ancestors worshipped false gods and "Abraham’s faithfulness in worshipping the true God, as well as his attempts to convert his family."

3. "...the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham (Abr. 1:6, 13, 17; facsimile 1, figs. 5–8)."

4. "...the ensemble of four figures depicted as figure 6 of Facsimile 2 could indeed “represent this earth in its four quarters” in the ancient world, as the explanation to the facsimile in the book of Abraham says."

5. "...figure 11 of facsimile 1 as “designed to represent the pillars of heaven, as understood by the Egyptians.”

6. "...The angled lines below the lion couch in facsimile 1 are identified as “the firmament over our heads” (fig. 12)."

Here is another extract from Dr. Peterson's article:

One noteworthy element of the religious situation portrayed in the book of Abraham is the identification of a crocodile as “the idolatrous god of Pharaoh.” (Facsimile 1, fig. 9.) Although this may have seemed strange in Joseph Smith’s day, discoveries in other ancient texts confirm this representation. Unas or Wenis, for example, was the last king of the fifth dynasty (circa 2356–2323 B.C.), and his pyramid still stands at Saqqara, south of modern Cairo. Utterance 317 of Unas’s Pyramid Texts includes the following: “The King Appears as the Crocodile-God Sobk,” and “Unas has come today from the overflowing flood; Unas is Sobk, green-plumed, wakeful, alert. … Unas arises as Sobk, son of Neith.” 9 One scholar observes that “the god Sobk is … viewed as a manifestation of Horus, the god most closely identified with the kingship of Egypt” during the Egyptian Middle Kingdom era (circa 2040–1640 B.C.), which includes the time period that tradition indicates as Abraham’s lifetime." 10

10. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 1:201.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks Wade, will read and respond back soon.

[_Milesius]

Ancient texts indicate that the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham (Abr. 1:6, 13, 17; facsimile 1, figs. 5–8), truly were worshipped in the ancient world, despite the fact that the Bible makes no mention of them.

Daniel Peterson does not list these texts, either here or in the foot note. Which texts, exactly, "indicate that the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham...truly were worshipped in the ancient world..."?

[_wenglund]

Daniel Peterson does not list these texts, either here or in the foot note. Which texts, exactly, "indicate that the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham...truly were worshipped in the ancient world..."?

For that, you will need to research the secondary sources mentioned in the footnote: Lundquist, “Was Abraham at Ebla?” p. 232; Tvedtnes and Christensen, Ur of the Chaldeans, pp. 32–33.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_moksha]

For that, you will need to research the secondary sources mentioned in the footnote: Lundquist, “Was Abraham at Ebla?” p. 232; Tvedtnes and Christensen, Ur of the Chaldeans, pp. 32–33.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Is there any LDS speculation about an excursion to St. Helena as well?

[_Buffalo]

Could you be more specific? Your links talk of general themes. Is there anything specific you'd like to point out that Joseph couldn't possibly have known through his studies? Wade?

The quoted portions of the linked article by Dr. Peterson are specific enough. Here, so far, are the specifics:

1. Abraham's father turned aside from worshipping the true God to worship the god of pharoah.

2. Abraham's father and ancestors worshipped false gods and "Abraham’s faithfulness in worshipping the true God, as well as his attempts to convert his family."

3. "...the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham (Abr. 1:6, 13, 17; facsimile 1, figs. 5–8)."

4. "...the ensemble of four figures depicted as figure 6 of Facsimile 2 could indeed “represent this earth in its four quarters” in the ancient world, as the explanation to the facsimile in the book of Abraham says."

5. "...figure 11 of facsimile 1 as “designed to represent the pillars of heaven, as understood by the Egyptians.”

6. "...The angled lines below the lion couch in facsimile 1 are identified as “the firmament over our heads” (fig. 12)."

Here is another extract from Dr. Peterson's article:

One noteworthy element of the religious situation portrayed in the book of Abraham is the identification of a crocodile as “the idolatrous god of Pharaoh.” (Facsimile 1, fig. 9.) Although this may have seemed strange in Joseph Smith’s day, discoveries in other ancient texts confirm this representation. Unas or Wenis, for example, was the last king of the fifth dynasty (circa 2356–2323 B.C.), and his pyramid still stands at Saqqara, south of modern Cairo. Utterance 317 of Unas’s Pyramid Texts includes the following: “The King Appears as the Crocodile-God Sobk,” and “Unas has come today from the overflowing flood; Unas is Sobk, green-plumed, wakeful, alert. … Unas arises as Sobk, son of Neith.” 9 One scholar observes that “the god Sobk is … viewed as a manifestation of Horus, the god most closely identified with the kingship of Egypt” during the Egyptian Middle Kingdom era (circa 2040–1640 B.C.), which includes the time period that tradition indicates as Abraham’s lifetime." 10

10. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 1:201.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

1. Peterson answers this one himself: Josh 24:2 "And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods."

2. Peterson references Jubilees, which would have been in Joseph Smith's Bible

3. Elkanah and Libnah are in the Bible. Korash appears to be a common Egyptian name. I don't know where Mahmackrah came from. Both of Peterson's sources are secondary, and are LDS apologetic works. It seems he can't find a real Egyptologist to give credence to these gods.

4. The concept of the four quarters of the earth is Biblical. (Isaiah 11:12)

5. Another concept found in the Bible (Job 9:6, Psalms 75:3, 1 Samuel 2:8)

6. Yet another Biblical concept - the firmament of the Bible holds the waters over the firmament, from which the flood waters fell

[_wenglund]

Hi Buffalo,

I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

1. Peterson answers this one himself: Josh 24:2 "And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods."

Yes.

2. Peterson references Jubilees, which would have been in Joseph Smith's Bible.

I am not sure it was in Joseph's Bible, but I looked up where in Jubilees it may be found: 11:1-15, 16-24, and 12:1-14.

3. Elkanah and Libnah are in the Bible. Korash appears to be a common Egyptian name. I don't know where Mahmackrah came from. Both of Peterson's sources are secondary, and are LDS apologetic works. It seems he can't find a real Egyptologist to give credence to these gods.

The name Elkanah is in the Bible, though in reference to various people (see HERE). The name Elkenah is not in the Bible, nor is it used in reference to idolotrous gods. The name Libnah is used in the Bible, but in reference to a town in the kingdom of Judia. (see HERE). In addition to Peterson's secondary sources (which likely cite "real Egyptologists"), there is this pertinant and interesting article by another non-"real Egyptologists," Kerry Shirts, On the Names of the Four Canopic Jars in Facsimile 1, which also cites "real Egyptologists". See also the draft of the Book of Abraham Commentary, pp. 21-23 (notes 40 and 41).

4. The concept of the four quarters of the earth is Biblical. (Isaiah 11:12]

5. Another concept found in the Bible (Job 9:6, Psalms 75:3, 1 Samuel 2:8)

6. Yet another Biblical concept - the firmament of the Bible holds the waters over the firmament, from which the flood waters fell

Yes, these concepts are found scattered sparsely througout the Bible. However, the concepts aren't all that is at issue in what I listed. What is at issue is the association of these concepts with specific hieroglypic figures in the Facsimilies. Such associations don't appear in the Bible. Sorry.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Buffalo]

I am not sure it was in Joseph's Bible, but I looked up where in Jubilees it may be found: 11:1-15, 16-24, and 12:1-14.

Many versions of the KJV included the apocrypha. If we're talking about things Joseph couldn't have known, then this doesn't qualify.

The name Elkanah is in the Bible, though in reference to various people (see HERE). The name Elkenah is not in the Bible, nor is it used in reference to idolotrous gods. The name Libnah is used in the Bible, but in reference to a town in the kingdom of Judia. (see HERE). In addition to Peterson's secondary sources (which likely cite "real Egyptologists"), there is this pertinant and interesting article by another non-"real Egyptologists," Kerry Shirts, On the Names of the Four Canopic Jars in Facsimile 1, which also cites "real Egyptologists". See also the draft of the Book of Abraham Commentary, pp. 21-23 (notes 40 and 41).

Elkanah is much closer to Elkenah than Nahom is to NHM. Spelling was not standardized in Joseph's day. Again, if we're talking about things Joseph couldn't have known, then this doesn't qualify. We don't even know if these were real gods - not without some primary sources. When I google these names, all I get are links to LDS topics.

4. The concept of the four quarters of the earth is Biblical. (Isaiah 11:12]

5. Another concept found in the Bible (Job 9:6, Psalms 75:3, 1 Samuel 2:8)

6. Yet another Biblical concept - the firmament of the Bible holds the waters over the firmament, from which the flood waters fell

Yes, these concepts are found scattered sparsely througout the Bible. However, the concepts aren't all that is at issue in what I listed. What is at issue is the association of these concepts with specific hieroglypic figures in the Facsimilies. Such associations don't appear in the Bible. Sorry.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

They're very prevalent themes in the Bible - especially the four quarters. Anyone who's read the flood story knows about the waters of the firmament. Again, if we're talking about things Joseph couldn't have known, then these don't qualify.

Incidentally, a common trick of fortune tellers is to count on their customers to count the hits and ignore the misses. The misses in the Book of Abraham far outnumber the hits, and the hits appear to be nothing that can't be explained by material available to Joseph in his lifetime.

Thanks, Wade.