The Mystery of Godliness

[_bomgeography]

The Bible and the Book of Mormon from what I can tell every civilization named is wicked at some point in time. So if the Book of Mormon only stated the lamanites were wicked you might have a case but it states that nephites were wicked and the lamanites were righteous at times too.

Under your thought process the Bible is racist and anti Semitic.

So tapir answer the question is the Bible racist and anti Semitic

[_tapirrider]

Let me ask you a question god condemned the tribe of Judah at times for being wicked. Is the Bible racist and anti Semitic because at times god condemns the hebrews for being wicked.

I'm glad you brought that up. First, the stories in the Bible are of a time before recorded history and are not applied to living people today. For example, can you point me to any claims that are morally and socially acceptable in the 21st century where God's wrath is on a living group of people and his spirit with those destroying them? It IS NOT acceptable to say that the Jews suffered the Holocaust because God's wrath was on them because they were so wicked and that God's spirit was with those in the German government who destroyed so many human lives. Anyone who preaches such a thing will not be met with anything but criticism. I am curious though, do you believe that God's wrath brought about the Jewish Holocaust because of their wickedness?

Another example would be the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It is simply unacceptable in today's world for someone to preach that the Palestinians are the Biblical Canaanites and deserving of losing their lives and lands because God's wrath is on them because of their wickedness while his spirit is with the Israelis. Those kind of things are wrong.

So why should it be acceptable to teach such things even now about American Indians? Those Book of Mormon verses in 1 Nephi 13 are supposed to be about real events that happened in the Americas beginning with Columbus. If we look at it in those terms, the wrath of god allegedly caused the loss of human life on a scale second only to the story of Noah. The Biblical stories about the genocide on the Canaanites don't even compare. The lands promised to Abraham were about the size of New York and Vermont. The Canaanites lived in an area smaller than New Jersey. North and South America combined are larger than all continents except Asia. The god of Mormonism has supposedly destroyed more people over a greater expanse of land than anything found in the Bible excepting the mythical flood. The wrath of the alleged god of the Book of Mormon brought the destruction of up to 90% of America's indigenous inhabitants, leaving only a "remnant".

The teaching that God's spirit was with those who afflicted and destroyed such a vast number of people, and over such a large land mass with genocide, scorched earth military campaigns and ongoing attempts of forced assimilation is beyond the scope of the land masses and numbers of people you are referring to in the Bible. It is beyond the scope of the Holocaust. I can accept that the arrival of Europeans introduced diseases in the Americas for which the Indians had no natural immunity to. But those Book of Mormon teachings can be taken to imply that God used smallpox to settle his wrath against those who the Book of Mormon teaches had sinned and were so wicked that they deserved it. That is so far beyond anything you are trying to compare to the Bible that I can only conclude that you are not comprehending what it is that we are discussing.

[_bomgeography]

I think you missed the point the Jews are a living group of people and because at times god condemns the Hebrews/Jews the Bible is now anti Semitic, under your way of thinking. Your conclusions do not make any sense to me it's not consistent.

[_tapirrider]

I think you missed the point the Jews are a living group of people and because at times god condemns the Hebrews/Jews the Bible is now anti Semitic, under your way of thinking. Your conclusions do not make any sense to me it's not consistent.

You are not understanding my way of thinking on this. Perhaps you are doing this intentionally so that you can attack the straw man you are attempting to create.

The Old Testament Bible stories originated from Hebrew stories, found today in Jewish scriptures. Those are from the very people they are about. They told them, wrote them and based their lives and culture on them. They are the stories, myths and legends that the Hebrew people developed to deal with their suffering, to celebrate their joy, to give meaning and purpose to their lives. They are a beautiful reflection of humanity wrapped up with all of the good and bad that humans do to each other. But it is about the ancient Hebrews, told about them and written by them. It is theirs, the Jewish scriptures, so it is simply absurd to ask me if I think it is anti-Semitic.

But let's honestly consider the Book of Mormon. Mormon describes that it was kept from the Indians because of their wickedness and given to "gentiles" to be taught to the Indians. That is an entirely different matter than the Torah or Bible. The teachings I have been discussing from 1 Nephi 13 are not something that American Indians willingly accept. But those same ideas are part of the European side of things. Beginning with the Pilgrims, the idea that America was a promised land for them and that the Indians were comparable to the Canaanites is a matter of recorded history. In a nutshell, the Book of Mormon is a recent publication, reflecting the ideas of whites in America at the time it was written. It is most certainly racist in many of its writings and in no way can be compared to the Jewish manner of their own sacred scriptures.

[_honorentheos]

I probably shouldn't participate in further derailing my own thread. But since I went down the road of devolving the conversation already from one shifting to look at potential Neoplatonist links in early Mormonism to, "My reading of scripture Trump's your reading of scripture", I guess it's too late.

So, what makes the Book of Mormon racist isn't it's claim that the Lamanites were wicked.

What makes the Book of Mormon racist is that it memorializes the 19th century belief that the Native Americans and their ancestors weren't capable of creating the civilizations evident to the early Europeans, and this needed to be explained by having a migration event from a developed Old World population. The lost tribes were a convenient Judeo-Christian myth that served as a candidate to explain the archeological evidence.

The entire premise behind Smith's story that forms the Book of Mormon is a 19th century racist belief about the primitive degenerate nature of the Native Americans. They were savages in the view Smith help preserve into the minds of 21st century Mormons, and it took a God-inspired Old World, Hebrew-rooted explanation to account for evidence they weren't willing to accept came from the native peoples of the Americas.

ETA: it also doesn't matter what someone like bomgeography thinks regarding the Book of Mormon being racist. The belief in the 19th c. was very racist. The Book of Mormon preserves this belief and stamps it with divine authority. It's racist at it's most fundamental narrative level independent of anyone's opinion of the theology, personal value, or spiritual witness to it's factual nature.

[_bomgeography]

Native Americans are Mormon and read and study from its pages.


You think the Book of Mormon is a racist work of fiction. I believe it's an ancient record of the indigenous people of America. When I read and study its pages it brings me closer to Christ and my Heavenly Father.It does the same for millions of others who read its pages.

Are views are 180% out of sync. I will never convince you and you will never convince me.

The best we can do is agree to disagree with some sense of civility and respect

[_bomgeography]

I was an unwilling participant of the derailing of the topic. I found the other topic very engaging.

[_bomgeography]

What I find interesting is when ever I share the National Geographic article that proves native Americans have DNA from the Middle East it gets derailed by the Book of Mormon is racist.

[_Themis]

What I find interesting is when ever I share the National Geographic article that proves native Americans have DNA from the Middle East it gets derailed by the Book of Mormon is racist.

What I find interesting is every time I share that this related DNA is tens of thousands of years old you keep ignoring this uncomfortable fact.

[_honorentheos]

Native Americans are Mormon and read and study from its pages.


You think the Book of Mormon is a racist work of fiction. I believe it's an ancient record of the indigenous people of America. When I read and study its pages it brings me closer to Christ and my Heavenly Father.It does the same for millions of others who read its pages.

Are views are 180% out of sync. I will never convince you and you will never convince me.

The best we can do is agree to disagree with some sense of civility and respect

The Native American peoples who were here long before the timeline proposed by the Book of Mormon have a history that the Book of Mormon rewrites. That's wrong. Period. You may say this rewriting is actually correct while that of the archeological evidence is mistaken. But that's justifying the racist view among 19th c. European-Americans against the available empirical evidence.

The best we ought to do is acknowledge the issue is legitimate, the evidence heavily against the claim the Book of Mormon is historical, but you and other believers accept non-empirical evidence which you believe makes the Book of Mormon meaningful to your life independent of this other context. I could accept that.