The Church publishes it's financial information...

[_Jhall118]

At this point, I think it's more than just the exposure of what they're hiding. I think it's a matter of pride and arrogance: they see themselves as in charge, period. No one, least of all the average member, is going to tell them how to run their corporation.

That being said, I do believe the widows who sacrificed to pay for the Packer estate will be blessed with treasures of much greater worth in the next life than the entire Packer estate.

Its hard to find one sentence that describes what I hate about religion better than this one.

[_ajax18]

Its hard to find one sentence that describes what I hate about religion better than this one.

I'm sorry, it wasn't my intent to upset you. I guess we all have a different perspective. For me, this is one of the scriptures that has always made me feel better when people mistreated me.

But I guess if none of it were true, I might hate it and see it just as an opiate used to pacify people so that they don't fight back. I'm 35 years old and haven't killed anyone yet. I doubt that would be true without the beliefs I was raised with as a child. There just wouldn't have been a good enough reason to put up with peoples crap. I hope there is more to it than just keeping us from shooting each other. Otherwise I'd probaby regret the many times I backed down and didn't fight back.

[_just me]

Its hard to find one sentence that describes what I hate about religion better than this one.

I'm sorry, it wasn't my intent to upset you. I guess we all have a different perspective. For me, this is one of the scriptures that has always made me feel better when people mistreated me.

But I guess if none of it were true, I might hate it and see it just as an opiate used to pacify people so that they don't fight back. I'm 35 years old and haven't killed anyone yet. I doubt that would be true without the beliefs I was raised with as a child. There just wouldn't have been a good enough reason to put up with peoples s***. I hope there is more to it than just keeping us from shooting each other. Otherwise I'd probaby regret the many times I backed down and didn't fight back.

Wait. What? Without the LDS religion you would be a murderer?!?!?! damned serious?

[_moksha]

GAs are paid a "stipend" as support. They receive no "salary."

Excellent point. We should think of these stipends more as dividends.

[_ajax18]

Wait. What? Without the LDS religion you would be a murderer?!?!?! f*****g serious?

One never starts out thinking he will become a murderer. But contentious situations are a part of life and oftentimes you can either choose to back down or fight. Contrary to popular dogma, communication doesn't always fix that. Anger management classes really don't answer the deeper questions for me.

I wouldn't call it murder. Murder is unjustifiable homicide. I'd kill people if I believed it were justified. I'd have more of an Old Testament approach to interpersonal conflict. If someone mistreated me, I'd find a way to kick their ass one way or another. That's what the natural man in me would do.

[_Jhall118]

Wait. What? Without the LDS religion you would be a murderer?!?!?! f*****g serious?

One never starts out thinking he will become a murderer. But contentious situations are a part of life and oftentimes you can either choose to back down or fight. Contrary to popular dogma, communication doesn't always fix that. Anger management classes really don't answer the deeper questions for me.

I wouldn't call it murder. Murder is unjustifiable homicide. I'd kill people if I believed it were justified. I'd have more of an Old Testament approach to interpersonal conflict. If someone mistreated me, I'd find a way to kick their ass one way or another. That's what the natural man in me would do.

Hmmm your logic is impeccable. Where do you live?

But seriously, if you didn't have religion in your life, you wouldn't go out killing people. That is a ridiculous point believers bring up now and then. I left the church when I was a young adult. I still don't smoke, drink, murder, or even have sex with anyone but my wife. Amazing isn't it! I still want to treat people kindly, because it is the right thing to do. I still don't take advantage of people because I am a good human being. I was when I believed in god, and that didn't change. I never avoided these things because it was written down by some ancient person (and when you cherry pick it, as many have done, you can justify murder with the Bible quite often).

If that doesn't convince you, then maybe the following will. Now that I don't believe in an after life, I realize that there is no "second chance" to make things right. There is no "eternity" for someone to forgive me. There is only this one life, and do I want to spend it being selfish and stepping all over people (which will more than likely end in me dying sooner), or would I rather spend it helping my fellow homo sapiens and being truly happy? No god required.

Also, when I look at the poor widow donating everything she has to her religion to have it squandered, I don't stand by and think "aww man, at least god will reward her later". I get pissed off, and try to change it. You should too. Same with all social inequalities. Religion has a history of being an opiate for control, and an excuse for the rich to take advantage of the poor. It causes me great mental anguish to think about people being taken advantage of (either well meaning or not) by the pious.

[_Dr. Shades]

GAs are paid a "stripend" as support. They receive no "salary."

Oh, so they're just like Catholic priests, then.

[_ajax18]

There is only this one life, and do I want to spend it being selfish and stepping all over people (which will more than likely end in me dying sooner), or would I rather spend it helping my fellow homo sapiens and being truly happy?

It's not my nature to mistreat people either. What I'm saying is that if there were only this one life and once chance for justice, I wouldn't be as forgiving. For me, Christianity would be foolishness.

For those who do believe, tithing is a covenant with God, not with the General Authorities. I believe the same thing for my grandmother who gave money to Jimmy and Tammy Baker. She gave that money in good faith. If there is no God or afterlife, than I would agree with you. But I believe there is.

[_Jason Bourne]

The point is... it wasn't his money to spend. Neither side comes out looking good in that transaction:

If a minister is paid by his congregation or Church is it his money to spend? Why would Elder Packer or any other GA that is paid not be able to spend this money as they wish?

Packer didn't earn enough as a CES employee to buy the property.

I am not sure how you know this.

He couldn't bear living in what he considered to be lesser housing.

fellow GAs of the time were pretty modest.

So when the church offered to buy the house for him with the tithes of the poor and widowed, he showed his true colors:

When did the Church offer to buy his a house?

The church comes off looking worse: they used tithing, which is supposed to be for the building up of the kingdom, not for the building up of a piece of property for man. And they've hid it ever since. They've been pouring money into it ever since. Houses don't go from $50K to $1million without some sort of investment.

Yes sometimes they do. Check out California and a home that was bought 40 years ago or many other markets. See my post above about SLC.

Will the property come back to the church after Packer's death? Or is it part of his estate that will go to his family? Yeah, the answer to the question makes a difference.

I have no idea. It might not be a bad idea for him or any GA to leave property acquired with their salary/stipend that appreciated to the Church.

It's dishonest to say GAs aren't paid, and then have the example of Packer's estate as a glaring example.

Who says that they are not paid?

They've all lived the lie for decades. Pay them, then own up to it. Open the books to the public, admit those payments over the pulpit in GC. Don't sugar coat it, don't try to hide it behind corporate profits, don't lie, for God's sake! Own it for what it is: a salary. And when push comes to shove, understand that this subject is a deal breaker.

I am all for full disclosure.

[_moksha]

What improvements he has made the the home I do not know. But I have no doubt most the appreciated value of his initial investment is the land not the home.

Salt Lake County has not attached any monetary value to the tunnels, caverns and oubliette.