Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

[_Themis]

Jensen is right, the Church needs a better online presence.

Yep. And I call upon those cowards at the MDB who are hiding their talent to come and post here and on other boards like this.

I really wish they would, but then they at least understand what you do not.

[_Themis]

Thanks for posting this, Drifting! To me, as a member, this gives hope that the brethren really are listening to the concerns of the membership.

It also brings out the point that members voting with their feet does get noticed. I am glad that they are taking anecdotal information seriously.

I don't think they really understand the problem. Members don't go to other sites and rely on it for their information. They especially go to LDS.org and also fair and farms. In reality the church is not what it claims and more people are finding this out. Continuing Scientific research is hurting the church's claims (not intentionally) over time. This trend is not likely to change because the church most likely not true.

[_Drifting]

Mormon Membership - 14,000,000 less an apostasy worth.
World Population - 7,000,000,000

Mormons are less than 0.2% of the population.

Again, this is to be expected. Nephi warned us it would be this way. Furthermore, as I stated previously, in the D&C we are told that the Gentiles will reject the gospel (which they have). I don't think the church is going come into its own until after it hits the fan.

Going to be a while yet then...

The end is not near, senior LDS apostle Boyd K. Packer said Saturday.

Today’s youths can look forward to "getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren," Packer told more than 20,000 Mormons gathered in the giant LDS Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City.

[_Fence Sitter]

Prop 8 is what I thought of, too, as something consequential the church has done as an institution. I suspect you and I differ as to whether we think that was a good thing for the church to do.

Lobbying to promote an out of state proposition that will be over turned sooner than later is not really anything to speak of even from a national POV.

[_Runtu]

It's interesting how things have changed in my lifetime. The church used to talk about its growth rate as validating its mission. Talks were given about how the church was "coming out of obscurity" to fill the world. Now, we're told that the church never was supposed to be anything but a small presence, obscure and largely unnoticed, at least until the Second Coming of Jesus.

[_Fence Sitter]

It's interesting how things have changed in my lifetime. The church used to talk about its growth rate as validating its mission. Talks were given about how the church was "coming out of obscurity" to fill the world. Now, we're told that the church never was supposed to be anything but a small presence, obscure and largely unnoticed, at least until the Second Coming of Jesus.

The vision of our scope is following the same path as Lehi's and the Lamanite's. I predict we will intermingle with other churches and become indistinguishable from them.

[_MsJack]

Good grief. The OP of this thread was such a fascinating little admission, which could have made for a wonderful discussion . . . and you all let it turn into a four-page bcspace-a-thon?

Remember your New Year's resolution, people!

[_Quasimodo]

Good grief. The OP of this thread was such a fascinating little admission, which could have made for a wonderful discussion . . . and you all let it turn into a four-page bcspace-a-thon?

Remember your New Year's resolution, people!

Ah shucks! We were all waiting for you to come here and straighten it out, MS, but you didn't show. I would have ignored bc, but it's too much fun to shoot him down. Ducks in a barrel.

[_Droopy]

One has to ask if Elder Jensen was exaggerating when he said it was an apostasy akin to the Kirtland era apostasy. Bcspace?

He didn't say that. He said "since", not akin. It was the questioner who brought up "droves". It illustrates what I said, there are facts and then there lies, rumors, and innuendo surrounding those facts most intentional imho, some perhaps like in this case, unintentional.

This is correct. The questioner conflated in a very smooth transition, Jensen's "since" Kirtland with an immediate extrapolation to a massive quantitative exodus from the Church that Jensen does not appear to have implied. I didn't see anything mentioned here about empirical numbers of any kind that could be looked at for evidence of the absolute numbers involved.

Not that, but it seems that the questioners, who only have anecdotal information, are assuming people are leaving "in droves" over historical information and MKJ is certainly not acknowledging to what degree that is the case. My own experience (also anecdotal) remains that this type of apostasy on it's own is rare. When someone trys to leave because of some sin or offense (also sin), that is when they add unbelief to justify. Some type sin, immorality or otherwise, is always what it boils down to and it happened well before unbelief.

And this is what the critics, and particularly, the those of ex-Mormon cast, do not want to hear, as it homes in, I would dare say, just a bit to close to the classic exmo narrative of pure-as-driven-snow intellectual self honesty as the sole driver of their exit from the Church.

[_MsJack]

Ah shucks! We were all waiting for you to come here and straighten it out, MS, but you didn't show. I would have ignored bc, but it's too much fun to shoot him down. Ducks in a barrel.

I've actually had an idea rolling around in my big, empty head for a long time now that touches down on this subject. Like most of my better ideas, I wrote the title before I actually wrote the post, and it's called "Can Grace Save Mormonism?" The essence is, I'm wondering if a theological narrative centered on election and grace in the face of being just as wrong as anyone else would not be a better narrative for accommodating Mormonism's historical foibles than the current attempts at treating the church and its leaders as effectively infallible, which necessitates sweeping said foibles under the rug. Contra my good friend Aristotle Smith, I'm wondering if such a theological shift wouldn't be able to tourniquet the hemorrhaging of members due to historical problems whilst allowing the church to retain its "only true church" claims and most of its theological distinctives.

Not that anyone at church HQ is listening to me (lulz), but it's fun to think about.

Perhaps it's time for me to finally try to write it all out.