Stay Strong Saints

[_gdemetz]

According to the accounts I have seen, Joseph was sealed to Zina while she was six months pregnant with the child of her husband, but continued to live with her husband, and, in fact, had another child by him, and that there was no evidence of any sexual relationship with Joseph and her. After the death of Joseph, she was resealed to him and later married Brigham Young for this life. There have been claims by critics of Joseph Smith fathering children, but all the DNA evidence which has come in so far has proved those claims false.

[_Drifting]

According to the accounts I have seen, Joseph was sealed to Zina while she was six months pregnant with the child of her husband, but continued to live with her husband, and, in fact, had another child by him, and that there was no evidence of any sexual relationship with Joseph and her. After the death of Joseph, she was resealed to him and later married Brigham Young for this life. There have been claims by critics of Joseph Smith fathering children, but all the DNA evidence which has come in so far has proved those claims false.

You have yet to face the problem your theorising that Joseph didn't father children with his polygamous (spiritual) wives causes. Namely, his disobedience to the commandment that polygamy (spiritual wifey) was specifically for the purpose of fathering children.

So which is it?
[ ] Joseph disobeyed a direct commandment from God
[ ] Joseph was a philanderer

[_gdemetz]

First of all, spiritual marriages were only a part of polygamy. Also, the raising up of seed in this life is only a part of the reason for polygamy. God looks at things from an eternal perspective. There is also the afterlife and future spirit children to be considered.

[_Drifting]

First of all, spiritual marriages were only a part of polygamy. Also, the raising up of seed in this life is only a part of the reason for polygamy. God looks at things from an eternal perspective. There is also the afterlife and future spirit children to be considered.

Please can you quote for me the parts of the commandment in D&C 132 that support your opinion that producing children was only part of the reason for Polygamy?

[_gdemetz]

You are not relating my statements accurately. Of course, in marriage, there is always the joy between a husband and wife which is one important aspect of it since it is not good for the man to be alone (or woman). However, I never said that children weren't always a vital part of any marriage. My statement was that is wasn't necessarily a part of it in this life, as, for example, the "spiritual" polygamous marriages.

[_Drifting]

You are not relating my statements accurately. Of course, in marriage, there is always the joy between a husband and wife which is one important aspect of it since it is not good for the man to be alone (or woman). However, I never said that children weren't always a vital part of any marriage. My statement was that is wasn't necessarily a part of it in this life, as, for example, the "spiritual" polygamous marriages.

Got it.

The loneliness line is moot because Joseph married women who were already married to good Mormons and therefore were not lonely in this life, nor likely to be lonely in the next.

So, according to the commandment in D&C 132, what was the purpose of polygamy during Joseph's practice of it in this life?

Let's see if the Book of Mormon can help us...

 

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed be the land for their sakes.

 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Hmmm...that seems to be commanding monogamy unless God wants more children.

[_gdemetz]

That is a very good point, and a very good question, Drifting! The only reason that I can think of is that the Lord saw fit that these women should have been sealed to Joseph for reasons that I could not judge. It is apparent in king Davids case why the Lord saw fit to give his wives to another (see D&C 132). However, in some of Joseph's marriages, the reasons are not apparent to me. Although, it may have been more apparent to those closer to the situations who were more familiar to the circumstances since there were surprisingly little or no objections by any of the parties involved.

[_Drifting]

That is a very good point, and a very good question, Drifting! The only reason that I can think of is that the Lord saw fit that these women should have been sealed to Joseph for reasons that I could not judge. It is apparent in king Davids case why the Lord saw fit to give his wives to another (see D&C 132). However, in some of Joseph's marriages, the reasons are not apparent to me. Although, it may have been more apparent to those closer to the situations who were more familiar to the circumstances since there were surprisingly little or no objections by any of the parties involved.

Gd, you are speculating wildly based on zero supporting evidence.

The evidence supports the fact that Joseph was a philanderer.
Here's my speculation based on the evidence available.

Joseph was a philanderer who got caught by his wife. Instead of taking his lumps for it he decided to concoct a story whereby God had commended his dalliances and to add legitimacy he made it about God commanding him to do so, not for lust but for producing offspring.

Were offspring the divine purpose of polygamy then God would have had the wherewithal to ensure that happened. Joseph didn't produce any offspring and so this leaves us with the only plausible explanation, that he was a philanderer.

If believing members don't like how that sits, the only fall back position available becomes "we don't know why".

I'm sorry, but a Church claiming to have the whole truth of God's gospel and a Prophet leading the Church today, should know why past Prophets did what they did in response to a direct revelation from God.

[_gdemetz]

I don't buy your view of him. You stated that, despite all his supposed relationships, he didn't produce offspring. Why? He had children from Emma. Is it your theory that he used some primitive birth control method? Your view is also not consistent at all with the people who were the closest to him and who knew him the best.

[_Drifting]

I don't buy your view of him. You stated that, despite all his supposed relationships, he didn't produce offspring. Why? He had children from Emma. Is it your theory that he used some primitive birth control method? Your view is also not consistent at all with the people who were the closest to him and who knew him the best.

I don't have a theory on why he didn't produce offspring.
I'm just going with the actual evidence that he didn't and that according to the commandment from God he was supposed to. We know he wasn't firing blanks (which I'm sure God could have sorted out anyway). So the only two possibilities left are that; he deliberately chose to disobey a direct commandment from God; or he was a Philanderer trying to provide a cover for his dalliances.

Can you quote for me the people closest to him that you reference so that I can see what it is they actually said?