The LDS Church is NOT the only "True" church!

[_Franktalk]

Read the Lectures on Faith sometime to understand the type of faith required to move mountains, and I assume come to an understanding of the mysteries of God. It is not a passive faith. It was also my understanding that one's calling and election needed to be achieved, in the mortal time frame. And I never said the heavens remained brass to me. I don't think this experience is much different for those that go through it.

I have heard that others experience the same thing. Even some of the prophets had long periods where nothing happened. There must be a reason and in time I may find out. I accept the will of God and would never attempt to move a mountain unless directed to do so.

[_RockSlider]

The common experience to which I refer is for anyone who has dilegently sought their calling and election. Basically one is dragged down to hell and back.

My understanding of your situation is that you are fairly new to the church, and were likely not seeking your calling and election. Is this true?

Jo, I assume you're seeking your calling and election correct?

[_Franktalk]

The common experience to which I refer is for anyone who has dilegently sought their calling and election. Basically one is dragged down to hell and back.

My understanding of your situation is that you are fairly new to the church, and were likely not seeking your calling and election. Is this true?

My election is going to happen or it is not. I rather think that what I am will dictate the outcome but what I am is way more than this experience in the flesh. God knew me before I came and it seems it was enough to almost predetermine any election. So try as I might I can not change history. I can only make new history. So I cast off the old and set my sights for this short life. Let others worry about such things.

[_RockSlider]

My election is going to happen or it is not. I rather think that what I am will dictate the outcome but what I am is way more than this experience in the flesh. God knew me before I came and it seems it was enough to almost predetermine any election. So try as I might I can not change history. I can only make new history. So I cast off the old and set my sights for this short life. Let others worry about such things.

I think this is why I tried to connect with you once before and could not seem to ... you're experience is not the same as mine ... its not based on old and deep Mormon Doctrines, to which I persued a totally orthodox approach to. I'm sure you are a very spiritual man, but I don't think that you relate to a multi-generational Mormon born and raised baby boomer generation. You just seem out of touch to some of these types of issues.

[_Franktalk]

I think this is why I tried to connect with you once before and could not seem to ... you're experience is not the same as mine ... its not based on old and deep Mormon Doctrines, to which I persued a totally orthodox approach to. I'm sure you are a very spiritual man, but I don't think that you relate to a multi-generational Mormon born and raised baby boomer generation. You just seem out of touch to some of these types of issues.

You are right. I think you were at a disadvantage because of the teachings of men. Do you recall if the spirit ever told you to follow deep Mormon doctrines? I must ask why you felt the need to determine if your election was sure? I hope it was not because Joseph Smith did it. The prophets have done many things I would not do. Unless I was directed by God to do so. Just because something is in the Bible does not mean we must do it. Or in the LDS history. You going to run out and marry a few women? It is man who screws up context of scripture. Peter denied Christ does that mean we should?

[_Franktalk]

Just a general question.

Back around 120 BC Alma performed baptisms. By what authority did he do this? Who gave him the keys? By what authority did he make priest for the church?

[_Tobin]

Just a general question.

Back around 120 BC Alma performed baptisms. By what authority did he do this? Who gave him the keys? By what authority did he make priest for the church?

By what authority did John the Baptist baptize? or did Jesus Christ heal the sick and perform the miracles he did?

Mormons often have this concept that one must be set apart by men. This is absurd. To have the authority (or priesthood of God), one must be anointed by God to do such thing. It is by his authority that such things are done. Men should never pretend to have such authority unless God tells them they have such authority and are to do such things.

[Guest]

You are right. I think you were at a disadvantage because of the teachings of men.

And yet, now you are Mormon, which should imply that you would also follow the prophets. This is what I don't get about you.

Do you recall if the spirit ever told you to follow deep Mormon doctrines? I must ask why you felt the need to determine if your election was sure?

By your asking this, I'm not sure that you understand what the teaching even is?

I hope it was not because Joseph Smith did it. The prophets have done many things I would not do. Unless I was directed by God to do so.

We were taught that if the prophets of the church spoke it, it was as if God had spoken it, and no it was not because Joseph Smith did it, it was because Joseph Smith taught that we should and could do it for ourselves. Again, I see that you just don't connect with old school and what I knew of mystic Mormonism. I don't get your being a part of it?

You going to run out and marry a few women?

There was a time that yes, I would have.

[_Drifting]

What about children who die before their eight birthday?

It never ceases to fascinate me when anti-mormons ask BASIC questions that they should know already.

After all, if you don't even and can't even know this basic teachings of the Church, what makes you all think you know and get right ANYTHING ELSE about the Church??? How does a "rational", intelligent, and moral person even come close to thinking that their negative judgments of the Church are actually the truth, when the BASICS even elude them???

You need to reflect on who you are actually serving.... It's not truth nor right.

As to your question, the same as everyone else who didn't know the Gospel and/or didn't receive of certain ordinances. They will receive them.

So...in the Mormon version of God's plan it's actually better for a person to go through life ignoring Mormonism and getting everything done in the next life when you will know for sure wether it's correct or not.

Got it.

[_jo1952]

However, the Lord is still guiding the Church as it fulfills so many of His purposes for mankind.

Jo, thank you for your honest answers. I've only partly paid attention to your posts, because of the pain it reminds me of. I only asked because I wondered if your experience is close to that which I once had, and it indeed sounds like it is.

Oh RockSlider!

My heart is aching for you. I hope you will be able to remember from studying scripture that those who abuse their power as religious leaders will be punished. Also remember that those who believe what their leaders have taught them and are faithful to those teachings will be counted as righteous - even if those beliefs are not correct. Yet that is only a small part of All Truth. You are right where you need to be!

In some ways I still marvel at my friend Hyrum Andrus, whom also, after much persecution by those in charge still held to your quoted thought above. My experience has been different.

I would like to point out that God has seen fit to continue to reveal Truth to me (and for other reasons unknown to me, the process seems to be accelerating), that literally daily my understandings expand and adjust....which has the effect of realigning all of scripture to make more and more sense. What I understand today will then be different tomorrow. Therefore, I continue to struggle within myself and what choices I will ultimately make about the Church which weighs heavily on my mind. It seems strange to say this; but in a way I feel like I have outgrown the Church. If I cannot find some place within the Church that can answer the level of questions I know have, I'm really not sure what choices I may make.

Something I HAVE learned in the past year is a different understanding of the teaching "Truth will set you free". What has happened is that my fears concerning God's possible retaliations are melting away. Whatever fear mechanisms any organized religious institution has ever taught me no longer have hold of my spirit. "Truth" is setting my spirit free from man's teachings about God.

I remember consuming all that I could find that man had printed, and then learning and growing in personal revelation seeking for even more. I learned of personal revelation to some degree of success as well. And then the day that the heavens turned to brass, and the two years of silence festered into a deep wound into my soul.

I have heard of this before. In fact, I have experienced it. Because it also took place at the same time that I became very sick back in 2005, I at first thought it was due to my illness that I felt the Heavens had closed to me. I felt that God had forsaken me. I had never been so confused or unhappy and forlorn. I realize now that it was a combination of things - and it was not unusual for someone going through my type of illness to feel they could no longer hear the answers to their prayers. However, from time to time, something would happen personally that would shout to me that God was well aware of what was going on. But I would remain in doubt. I think that thinking God had abandoned me was more painful to think about than what my illness was doing to my quality of life. I have been to hell and back; then to hell and back again. It has taken me years to understand this and finally come to the realization that these trials really and truly HAVE been for own spiritual good.

During that time I made choices that I would never have made under any other circumstances. This became a huge trial for my faith; and I started to question everything about God. I yelled, screamed, begged, and cried uncontrollably AT God; for months, and then for years. I became hopeless. There is nothing worse than being without hope. I caught a glimpse of what it must have been like for Jesus while He neared His physical death and cried out, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?!" It is truly an excrutiating thought to consider that God no longer loves you. He is supposed to love you no matter what! But oh, the lesson learned could never have been taught to me if I had never personally experienced it. It was not until later that I came to understand He had never left me alone. During a couple of my darkest moments, who do you think would show up out of the blue at my door? My Bishop! He would show up and merely say, "I knew God wanted me to stop by to see you - but I don't know what the reason is. It was like I had no control over where my car was taking me." God frequently answers our prayers by using others!!

If you are comfortable doing so, please send me a pm and share what has happened. My spirit aches for your spirit. God doesn't care what church you go to, by the way; or even if you go to church anywhere. It is your spirit He loves; not your physical body.

This I do believe, if a man/woman is to seek for their calling and election, to come to know the Mysteries of Godliness, the Church of Jesus Christ holds no special keys, rights or ownership and in fact have apostatized far from it.

As I said, God doesn't care what church you go to, or even if you go to church. As such, the condition of the Church has no control over your spirit.

Jo I hope you are never hurt, like I was with all of this. Seeking the mysteries of God is a dangerous path.

Yes, it certainly can be!!! Amen to that!!! It is the rewards that I have tasted from time to time which keep me motivated irresistably to more and more Truth.

Jo, might I ask your age?

I don't feel it (after all, our spirit is young in spiritual, eternal "time"), but my body is 60 years old. How about you?

For what it is worth, I love you. Many blessings to you! Shalom!

jo