Why maklelan can't win a debate with me

[_Mittens]

There are many places in the Hebrew Bible where God was thought to have physically and directly interacted with humanity, but over time this became unacceptable, and the answer was to insert the word "angel" before God. I discuss several examples of this in this blog post.

I haven't read the blog post, but let me take a guess... Genesis 18?

King James
”No one has seen God {referring to the Father} BUT GOD the One and Only, who is at the Fathers side has made him known.” John 1:18 New International {Jehovah GOD was seen many times by the people, so in them cases it couldn’t be the Father, {had to be Jesus who was seen and called Jehovah.

“Moses and Aaron, Nahab and Abihu, and seventy of the Elders went up and saw God of Israel under his feet was something like pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky it self, but God did not raise his hand against these leaders of Israelites, they saw God, and they ate and drank,” Exodus 24:9-11

“at this point the men turned from there way to Sodom but as for JEHOVAH he was standing still before Abraham….then JEHOVAH went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham.” Genesis 18:22-33 New World Translation Genesis 18:2 says three men appeared to Abraham, two are identified as angels {Genesis 19:1} ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS JEHOVAH GOD Genesis 18:1,3,13,14,17,20,22,26,27,31,32 and 33


the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.

Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)

Jer. 31:9, "...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."

ISA 9:
6 For a child is born to us,

a son is given to us.

The government will rest on his shoulders.

And he will be called:

Wonderful Counselor,£ Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Judges 13:
16“I will stay,” the angel of the LORD replied, “but I will not eat anything. However, you may prepare a burnt offering as a sacrifice to the LORD.” (Manoah didn’t realize it was the angel of the LORD.)
17Then Manoah asked the angel of the LORD, “What is your name? For when all this comes true, we want to honor you.”
18“Why do you ask my name?” the angel of the LORD replied. “It is too wonderful for you to understand.”

The Angel of LORD was Jesus

[_maklelan]

King James
”No one has seen God {referring to the Father} BUT GOD the One and Only, who is at the Fathers side has made him known.” John 1:18 New International {Jehovah GOD was seen many times by the people, so in them cases it couldn’t be the Father, {had to be Jesus who was seen and called Jehovah.

Yeah, the text doesn't say "God the One and Only," it says "the unique son, which is in the bosom of the Father." Get a decent translation. Also, the notion had developed by this time that no one could see God because of Exod 33:20, but the Old Testament is full of exceptions to that rule (which is a pretty late rule anyway, and originally just referred to seeing his face). Your problem is you're presupposing univocality, when the reality is that these texts are just promoting entirely different ideologies.

“Moses and Aaron, Nahab and Abihu, and seventy of the Elders went up and saw God of Israel under his feet was something like pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky it self, but God did not raise his hand against these leaders of Israelites, they saw God, and they ate and drank,” Exodus 24:9-11

Yeah, the master's thesis I wrote at Oxford deals extensively with this passage. See here.

“at this point the men turned from there way to Sodom but as for JEHOVAH he was standing still before Abraham….then JEHOVAH went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham.” Genesis 18:22-33 New World Translation Genesis 18:2 says three men appeared to Abraham, two are identified as angels {Genesis 19:1} ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS JEHOVAH GOD Genesis 18:1,3,13,14,17,20,22,26,27,31,32 and 33

You're citing the Jehovah's Witnesses translation?

the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.

No, I've already corrected you on this one. It doesn't mean that.

Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)

Jer. 31:9, "...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."

ISA 9:
6 For a child is born to us,

a son is given to us.

The government will rest on his shoulders.

And he will be called:

Wonderful Counselor,£ Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is about Hezekiah.

Judges 13:
16“I will stay,” the angel of the LORD replied, “but I will not eat anything. However, you may prepare a burnt offering as a sacrifice to the LORD.” (Manoah didn’t realize it was the angel of the LORD.)

No, Manoah didn't realize it was God himself. As I pointed out, the word "angel" was added later on.

17Then Manoah asked the angel of the LORD, “What is your name? For when all this comes true, we want to honor you.”
18“Why do you ask my name?” the angel of the LORD replied. “It is too wonderful for you to understand.”

The Angel of LORD was Jesus

No, that's not true at all. That's a much later Christian attempt to reconcile God's invisibility with God's visibility. The Angel of YHWH was a corporeal being, which would violate the notion that Christ wasn't incarnate yet. The only honest and informed approach is to just acknowledge these are different ideologies promoted by different authors. That violates your dogmatism, though, so you can't accept that. See, you don't care at all what the text says, you just care what your tradition says the text is allowed to say.

[_LittleNipper]

And the Born-again Believer (who understands that Christ is God) will accept that it was Christ who was seen and being seen and not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. No one has seen GOD in His entirety. And this is where the Trinity or Godhead comes into play.

[_maklelan]

And the Born-again Believer (who understands that Christ is God) will accept that it was Christ who was seen and being seen and not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. No one has seen GOD in His entirety. And this is where the Trinity or Godhead comes into play.

In other words, "Nu-uh!" and "Because I said so!" It's quite clear to anyone who can walk erect that you have no case, but only dogmatism, and only at which you've arrived arbitrarily.

[_Mittens]

I sure have a problem thinking makelan thinks he's a student of scripture

http://www.gotquestions.org/theophany-Christophany.html

Question: "What is a theophany? What is a Christophany?"

Answer: A theophany is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form. Some of the theophanies are found in these passages:

1. Genesis 12:7-9 – The Lord appeared to Abraham on his arrival in the land God had promised to him and his descendants.

2. Genesis 18:1-33 – One day, Abraham had some visitors: two angels and God Himself. He invited them to come to his home, and he and Sarah entertained them. Many commentators believe this could also be a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

3. Genesis 32:22-30 – Jacob wrestled with what appeared to be a man, but was actually God (vv. 28-30). This may also have been a Christophany.

4. Exodus 3:2 - 4:17 – God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush, telling him exactly what He wanted him to do.

5. Exodus 24:9-11 – God appeared to Moses with Aaron and his sons and the seventy elders.

6. Deuteronomy 31:14-15 – God appeared to Moses and Joshua in the transfer of leadership to Joshua.

7. Job 38–42 – God answered Job out of the tempest and spoke at great length in answer to Job’s questions.

Frequently, the term “glory of the Lord” reflects a theophany, as in Exodus 24:16-18; the “pillar of cloud” has a similar function in Exodus 33:9. A frequent introduction for theophanies may be seen in the words “the Lord came down,” as in Genesis 11:5; Exodus 34:5; Numbers 11:5; and 12:5.

Some Bible commentators believe that whenever someone received a visit from “the angel of the Lord,” this was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. These appearances can be seen in Genesis 16:7-14; Genesis 22:11-18; Judges 5:23; 2 Kings 19:35; and other passages. Other commentators believe these were in fact angelophanies, or appearances of angels. While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, where God took the form of a man to live among us as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23).

http://biblehub.com/judges/6-22.htm

Genesis 32:30
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Exodus 33:20
But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Judges 6:23
But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."

Judges 13:21
When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.

Judges 13:22
"We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"

Treasury of Scripture

And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O LORD God! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.

perceived

Judges 13:21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his …

because

Judges 13:22,23 And Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God…

Genesis 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spoke to her, You God see …

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God …

Exodus 33:20 And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Deuteronomy 5:5,24,26 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to show you the word …

Isaiah 6:5-8 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean …

John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

[_maklelan]

I sure have a problem thinking makelan thinks he's a student of scripture

That's the problem with dogmatism, it always has to try to denigrate and marginalize education and intelligence.

http://www.gotquestions.org/theophany-Christophany.html

Question: "What is a theophany? What is a Christophany?"

Answer: A theophany is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses.

This presupposes deity in incorporeal, which is nowhere supported in the Bible at all and was rejected throughout Judeo-Christianity until the assimilation of Platonic ontological dualism in the second and third centuries CE. A good discussion is here.

In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form. Some of the theophanies are found in these passages:

1. Genesis 12:7-9 – The Lord appeared to Abraham on his arrival in the land God had promised to him and his descendants.

2. Genesis 18:1-33 – One day, Abraham had some visitors: two angels and God Himself. He invited them to come to his home, and he and Sarah entertained them. Many commentators believe this could also be a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

3. Genesis 32:22-30 – Jacob wrestled with what appeared to be a man, but was actually God (vv. 28-30). This may also have been a Christophany.

4. Exodus 3:2 - 4:17 – God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush, telling him exactly what He wanted him to do.

5. Exodus 24:9-11 – God appeared to Moses with Aaron and his sons and the seventy elders.

6. Deuteronomy 31:14-15 – God appeared to Moses and Joshua in the transfer of leadership to Joshua.

7. Job 38–42 – God answered Job out of the tempest and spoke at great length in answer to Job’s questions.

Frequently, the term “glory of the Lord” reflects a theophany, as in Exodus 24:16-18; the “pillar of cloud” has a similar function in Exodus 33:9. A frequent introduction for theophanies may be seen in the words “the Lord came down,” as in Genesis 11:5; Exodus 34:5; Numbers 11:5; and 12:5.

Actually in the earliest strata of biblical narrative, the word translated "glory" means "body." For that, see here.

Some Bible commentators believe that whenever someone received a visit from “the angel of the Lord,” this was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. These appearances can be seen in Genesis 16:7-14; Genesis 22:11-18; Judges 5:23; 2 Kings 19:35; and other passages. Other commentators believe these were in fact angelophanies, or appearances of angels. While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, where God took the form of a man to live among us as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23).

This is imposing a Christian and anti-anthropomorphic lens upon the Hebrew Bible, which is just ludicrous.

http://biblehub.com/judges/6-22.htm

Genesis 32:30
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Exodus 33:20
But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Judges 6:23
But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."

Judges 13:21
When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.

Judges 13:22
"We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"

Treasury of Scripture

And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O LORD God! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.

perceived

Judges 13:21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his …

because

Judges 13:22,23 And Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God…

Genesis 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spoke to her, You God see …

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God …

Exodus 33:20 And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Deuteronomy 5:5,24,26 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to show you the word …

Isaiah 6:5-8 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean …

John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

I don't see how any of this is anything other than "Nu-uh."

[_LittleNipper]

I sure have a problem thinking makelan thinks he's a student of scripture

That's the problem with dogmatism, it always has to try to denigrate and marginalize education and intelligence.

http://www.gotquestions.org/theophany-Christophany.html

Question: "What is a theophany? What is a Christophany?"

Answer: A theophany is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses.

This presupposes deity in incorporeal, which is nowhere supported in the Bible at all and was rejected throughout Judeo-Christianity until the assimilation of Platonic ontological dualism in the second and third centuries CE. A good discussion is here.

In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form. Some of the theophanies are found in these passages:

1. Genesis 12:7-9 – The Lord appeared to Abraham on his arrival in the land God had promised to him and his descendants.

2. Genesis 18:1-33 – One day, Abraham had some visitors: two angels and God Himself. He invited them to come to his home, and he and Sarah entertained them. Many commentators believe this could also be a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

3. Genesis 32:22-30 – Jacob wrestled with what appeared to be a man, but was actually God (vv. 28-30). This may also have been a Christophany.

4. Exodus 3:2 - 4:17 – God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush, telling him exactly what He wanted him to do.

5. Exodus 24:9-11 – God appeared to Moses with Aaron and his sons and the seventy elders.

6. Deuteronomy 31:14-15 – God appeared to Moses and Joshua in the transfer of leadership to Joshua.

7. Job 38–42 – God answered Job out of the tempest and spoke at great length in answer to Job’s questions.

Frequently, the term “glory of the Lord” reflects a theophany, as in Exodus 24:16-18; the “pillar of cloud” has a similar function in Exodus 33:9. A frequent introduction for theophanies may be seen in the words “the Lord came down,” as in Genesis 11:5; Exodus 34:5; Numbers 11:5; and 12:5.

Actually in the earliest strata of biblical narrative, the word translated "glory" means "body." For that, see here.

Some Bible commentators believe that whenever someone received a visit from “the angel of the Lord,” this was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. These appearances can be seen in Genesis 16:7-14; Genesis 22:11-18; Judges 5:23; 2 Kings 19:35; and other passages. Other commentators believe these were in fact angelophanies, or appearances of angels. While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, where God took the form of a man to live among us as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23).

This is imposing a Christian and anti-anthropomorphic lens upon the Hebrew Bible, which is just ludicrous.

http://biblehub.com/judges/6-22.htm

Genesis 32:30
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Exodus 33:20
But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Judges 6:23
But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."

Judges 13:21
When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.

Judges 13:22
"We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"

Treasury of Scripture

And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O LORD God! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.

perceived

Judges 13:21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his …

because

Judges 13:22,23 And Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God…

Genesis 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spoke to her, You God see …

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God …

Exodus 33:20 And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Deuteronomy 5:5,24,26 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to show you the word …

Isaiah 6:5-8 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean …

John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

I don't see how any of this is anything other than "Nu-uh."

I believe what Mittens is hinting at, is that it seems you denigrate and marginalize the education and intelligence of those you disagree with. Verses are displayed and you say that they don't mean what they say. And since Christ Himself holds the lens that Christians look through, the Christian of course has a clearer understanding of the ancient text. It is like Isaiah 53. The prophet didn't see Jesus, but it is very clear now that that is who is being written about, unless one put blinders on and is trying to reject Christ. I know serious Jews who will not even read Isaiah 53. So clearly the intent is to censor the Bible and not embrace it, by those seeking to cling to ONE's personal religion. The truth sets people free, and not political or religious "correctness," secular humanistic or otherwise.

[_maklelan]

I believe what Mittens is hinting at, is that it seems you denigrate and marginalize the education and intelligence of those you disagree with.

I have yet to see anything compelling from anyone with an identified education. I'm criticizing your dogmatism and your awareness of the scholarship, not your intelligence.

Verses are displayed and you say that they don't mean what they say.

Completely false. You cannot point to a single verse that I said did not mean what it says. What I reject is your interpretation of those verses, and I have defended my rejection in every single instance. None of you have bothered to challenge my interpretations or defend your own.

And since Christ Himself holds the lens that Christians look through, the Christian of course has a clearer understanding of the ancient text.

Balderdash. That's just dogmatism. You're right because you say so. You cannot provide a shred of evidence that your perspective is at all informed or educated. You can only insist that you're right because you say so.

It is like Isaiah 53. The prophet didn't see Jesus, but it is very clear now that that is who is being written about, unless one put blinders on and is trying to reject Christ.

All texts get reinterpreted. If you want to insist your interpretation is correct, you have to defend it.

I know serious Jews who will not even read Isaiah 53.

Congratulations.

So clearly the intent is to censor the Bible and not embrace it, by those seeking to cling to ONE's personal religion.

That's an asinine projection. I am happy to let the Bible have its say at all times. I can defend my readings. You cannot.

The truth sets people free, and not political or religious "correctness," secular humanistic or otherwise.

Then why are you so afraid to engage my arguments? You were giving it a shot in your PMs to me, but you still ended up just appealing to dogmatism over and over again.

[_LittleNipper]

I believe what Mittens is hinting at, is that it seems you denigrate and marginalize the education and intelligence of those you disagree with.

I have yet to see anything compelling from anyone with an identified education. I'm criticizing your dogmatism and your awareness of the scholarship, not your intelligence.

Verses are displayed and you say that they don't mean what they say.

Completely false. You cannot point to a single verse that I said did not mean what it says. What I reject is your interpretation of those verses, and I have defended my rejection in every single instance. None of you have bothered to challenge my interpretations or defend your own.

And since Christ Himself holds the lens that Christians look through, the Christian of course has a clearer understanding of the ancient text.

Balderdash. That's just dogmatism. You're right because you say so. You cannot provide a shred of evidence that your perspective is at all informed or educated. You can only insist that you're right because you say so.

It is like Isaiah 53. The prophet didn't see Jesus, but it is very clear now that that is who is being written about, unless one put blinders on and is trying to reject Christ.

All texts get reinterpreted. If you want to insist your interpretation is correct, you have to defend it.

I know serious Jews who will not even read Isaiah 53.

Congratulations.

So clearly the intent is to censor the Bible and not embrace it, by those seeking to cling to ONE's personal religion.

That's an asinine projection. I am happy to let the Bible have its say at all times. I can defend my readings. You cannot.

The truth sets people free, and not political or religious "correctness," secular humanistic or otherwise.

Then why are you so afraid to engage my arguments? You were giving it a shot in your PMs to me, but you still ended up just appealing to dogmatism over and over again.

I show you verses and you tell me what your professors taught you. Everything Christian scientists say is tainted, and everything secular scientists promote is above reproach with you. I was sending you personal messages because you were becoming very argumentative and disruptive to the point of making fun and hurtful to those seeking the knowledge of God's Word. this thread is not about either you or me, but what the Bible says.

[_maklelan]

I show you verses and you tell me what your professors taught you.

That's simply not true, and I'll thank you not to pretend to know the first thing about me or my education. I study the languages, the literature, and the history, and I make my own decisions. Both my last two thesis advisors disagreed with portions of my theses but couldn't say I didn't make a compelling case, and in both cases my theses were ideas I came up with entirely on my own. My professors have been Mormon, Anglican, Jewish, Evangelical, Atheist, Muslim, and even Buddhist. I've never just regurgitated what they've taught. How dare you just ignorantly assume those things about me.

Everything Christian scientists say is tainted,

No, everything Christian scientists say that is dogmatic and unevidenced is of no value. Whatever they say that is scientific and is based on evidence is of value. Maybe you missed the memo, but there are many, many Christian scientists who reject creationism and entirely endorse evolution.

and everything secular scientists promote is above reproach with you.

Also completely false.

I was sending you personal messages because you were becoming very argumentative and disruptive to the point of making fun and hurtful to those seeking the knowledge of God's Word. this thread is not about either you or me, but what the Bible says.

Ok, let's talk about what the Bible says. You just posted 2 Kgs 3:27, which says the Israelite forces were driven off by a great wrath. Tell me what that text means.