Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

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_Dan Vogel
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Roger,

That's odd. Is that the only place Joseph Smith's handwriting appears?


I think so.

I suppose Cowdery and/or Rigdon was in charge of compiling the revelations and random changes?


Yes, that is what is indicated by the new “Commandments & Revelations” book. That is, before they were printed in the E&MS and 1833 Book of Commandments. These were mostly insignificant changes, but the big changes came before the 1835 D&C was printed. Apparently Joseph Smith was responsible for those.

Are there two ms's for the Book of Moses?


Yes, Old Testament #1 (scribes OC, JW, Emma Smith, SR), and Old Testament #2 (scribe JW).

What about the Book of Abraham? That's a whole different ballgame isn't it?


Well, save that discussion for another time.

So I look at the above and wonder if you meant what you typed or if there is a typo.... did you mean "True, it doesn’t rule out that he could have been a deceiver himself..." (which would be agreeing with me) or did you mean what you typed?


Oops! I meant: “True, it doesn’t mean he couldn’t be a deceiver himself, but it opens the door to his possibly being a dupe.

I agree that Smith knew the learned would not be able to read them. I think Isaiah 29 was already in the back of Smith's mind before Harris left.


Possibly. Nephi discusses Isaiah 29 being fulfilled when the learned can’t read the book, but when Joseph Smith discusses it in his 1838 history there is an important change. Now the learned can read the book, so Joseph Smith fulfills Isa. 29 awkwardly by putting the words “I cannot read a sealed book” in Anthon’s mouth.

Are you aware of the possible connection to the Detroit Manuscript? Have you read Richard Stout's essay on this?


I looked at that a few years ago, but wasn’t impressed. I think it’s good for background, but wouldn’t push it too far.

Yes, I agree. Smith's 1832 version contradicts his 1838 version. So do you believe Anthon when he says a blanket was used to separate Smith from Harris?


Yes, but this was in Feb. 1828 before any translation began. I believe Joseph Smith went behind the curtain to copy the characters from the plates. When Harris returned from the East and began as scribe, Joseph Smith did it with head in hat. Harris describes this and even tells a story about how he switched the stone in the hat with one he found while skipping stones on the Susquehanna. When Joseph Smith tried to translate he found that he couldn’t, and said to Harris: “All is as dark as Egypt.” Then, as Harris told it, he confessed to Joseph Smith that he had switched the stone. Harris was a fool to think that he could trick Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was more familiar with the appearance of his stone than was Harris, and there’s no way Harris could find a stone close enough in size and peculiar color to Joseph Smith’s stone. Joseph Smith played along and Harris got his proof. Joseph Smith asked why he did it, and Harris said: “To stop the mouths of fools.”
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

aussieguy55 wrote:Dale
We now have the three theories of the origin of the Book of Mormon. These theories have been defended by each propopent, each with what they feel is their eternal salvation. The stone in the hat theory accepted by TBMs, the Smith with sources argued by Vogel and Chris Smith, the S/R theory argued by Dale, Jockers and Criddle.


Of course there have been a few other, different explanations for
Mormon origins. The modern Community of Christ explanation
seems to be that Smith wrote "scriptures" such as the Book of
Moses, Book of Mormon, and Book of Abraham -- and that they
are not "true," in the sense of being authentic ancient texts.

I've also encountered Christian evangelicals who are willing to
grant that the Church was founded through truly supernatural
manifestations --- manifestations orchestrated by Satan.

Some folks believe that Joe Smith wrote his gold Bible through
the inexplicable phenomenon of automatic writing, and was a
true believer in his own fraud.

So, there are a variety of explanations regarding Mormon origins,
and I would not be too quick to summarize them as three
competing "theories." I do, however, think that three-fold choice
does present itself to each reader of the Book of Mormon. That is,
either the book is what it says it is, or else it was a 19th century
production which only incorporated a few succinct ancient texts,
in the form of copying from the King James Bible. Did a portion
of the remaining narrative come from Spalding and Rigdon? (Or
from Alvin Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Parley Pratt or Lucy Mack Smith?)
In answering such queries, the 19th century explanation naturally
divides into "yes" and "no" camps --- thus, three reader choices.

With the two papers now published, has Bruce S knocked your theory out the ring?


I doubt that 99% of Latter Day Saints have ever heard of either
of these two computerized studies -- and that 99.9% of Gentiles
have not only never heard of them, they will never hear of them.

What the two papers have accomplished, is to better define the
proper limitations of NSC computerized analysis of the text. If we
consult Bruce's results, it is 100% certain that Joseph Smith
wrote Enos and 100% certain that he did not write Jarom. I say
that there is sufficient contradictory data in those results so as
to render them worthless in determining exactly what Smith
contributed and did not contribute to the text. It is rather odd
that his 1830 Preface was not even included in Bruce's report --
so we do not know whther Bruce is saying that it is 100% certain
that Smith wrote that part of the book, or 100% certain he did not.

On the other hand, I feel that Bruce's reporting has served to
clarify the limitations of Matt's study results. Those results are
RELATIVE to the combined word-print data included for the
several author-candidates consulted in the study. It is more
probable (from the Stanford team's reporting) that Smith, Cowdery,
Pratt, Rigdon and Spalding wrote CERTAIN parts of the text, than
that they respectively wrote OTHER parts of the text.

Given some refinement and expansion of the field of authors'
selected for word-printing, I believe that Matt's methods can
eventually tell us which parts of the Book of Mormon most
resemble the language used by Smith, the language used by
Cowdery, etc. etc.

Should the S/R supporters fold up their tent and leave. Will certain Mormons in their BYU campus wards now be crowing about how they demolished the arguments of the Stanford crowd? Or are we left now with the stone in the hat story or the Smith alone (using local materials) story (Vogel)?


In my opinion, the artificial categorization of "three theories" is
beginning to crumble -- and we are now on the verge of learning
what the text(s) can tell us, in conjunction with all the compiled
historical data.

I believe that the Smith-alone "theory" and the Spalding "theory"
are beginning to merge into a single authorship explanation. Think
back to the days before Fawn Brodie's book. If we could ask a
Spalding "theory" advocate from that period, just how much of
the Book of Mormon Joe Smith wrote, the answer would likely
have been "Zero!" (minus the Preface, of course). But the careful
student of the Spalding-Rigdon claims today would be practically
compelled to admit that Smith wrote some part of the text.

If we could have questioned the Mormon scholars of Brodie's day,
as to how much of his own language Smith interjected into the
book, their probable answer would have been "Zero!" (minus the
Preface, of course). But the educated Mormon today must admit
that Smith inserted his own language, along with language taken
from the KJV Bible and possibly from other published sources.

Computerized analysis of the book has not yet reached the level
of perfection whereby we can positively identify the writer of
each and every page of the Book of Mormon ---- but several
different studies have reported the text to be the composite
production of MORE THAN ONE writer (even when the biblical
borrowings are excluded). I think that finding is an important one.

This "theory" convergence I'm speaking of will effect the way in
which Spalding-Rigdon proponents articulate their "theory." Any
competent future explanation from their ranks has to acknowledge
the known (and likely) actions of Smith and Cowdery, at the very
least. Their combined efforts provide the frame into which future
renditions of the Spalding-Rigdon claims are set. That requires our
careful consideration of scholarship that previous S-R advocates
would have naturally overlooked.

If I am correct in what I am saying, then the biblical religion was
a far greater motivation/model in the composition of the Book of
Mormon, than was any early 19th century notion regarding the
mound-builders, vanished races, etc. --- That means Ethan Smith
and Solomon Spalding must be de-elevated from positions of
purportedly having originated the polemics of the "Nephites," down
to the lower status of having been mere "influences."

The Spalding-Rigdon "theory" of 2020 will be a much scaled-down
version of its former self -- better fitted to known history, and
practically encompassed by the Smith-authorship explanations.

Paradoxically, the S-R claims will thus become stronger and more
reasonable, rather than being demolished (as Mormons might hope).

In all of this transformation, I expect that the Brodieites will be
our (S-R advocates') greatest enemy (and not the LDS Church).

UD
Last edited by Bedlamite on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

Uncle Dale wrote:

With the two papers now published, has Bruce S knocked your theory out the ring?


What the two papers have accomplished, is to better define the
proper limitations of NSC computerized analysis of the text. If we
consult Bruce's results, it is 100% certain that Joseph Smith
wrote Enos and 100% certain that he did not write Jarom. I say
that there is sufficient contradictory data in those results so as
to render them worthless in determining exactly what Smith
contributed and did not contribute to the text. It is rather odd
that his 1830 Preface was not even included in Bruce's report --
so we do not know whther Bruce is saying that it is 100% certain
that Smith wrote that part of the book, or 100% certain he did not.


Dale, I think that you have overstated the case somewhat. Bruce's results still only give relative probabilities for the candidate set. If you read Bruce's paper again, you will find that he notes that there is no pattern to the hits for any of those in the candidate set, i.e. all of those hits are random.


aussieguy wrote:Should the S/R supporters fold up their tent and leave. Will certain Mormons in their BYU campus wards now be crowing about how they demolished the arguments of the Stanford crowd? Or are we left now with the stone in the hat story or the Smith alone (using local materials) story (Vogel)?


Uncale Dale wrote:Computerized analysis of the book has not yet reached the level
of perfection whereby we can positively identify the writer of
each and every page of the Book of Mormon ---- but several
different studies have reported the text to be the composite
production of MORE THAN ONE writer (even when the biblical
borrowings are excluded). I think that finding is an important one.


The LDS scholars feel that the identification multiple authorship styles in the Book of Mormon is important also. The Rencher, Larsen, and Layton study compared the text internally and identified 24 different authorship styles. If the NSC methods were applied to the Book of Mormon internally, I think that it would also show that it is consistent within authors and would differentiate between the different authors.

Uncle Dale wrote:This "theory" convergence I'm speaking of will effect the way in
which Spalding-Rigdon proponents articulate their "theory." Any
competent furure explanation from their ranks has to acknowledge
the known (and likely) actions of Smith and Cowdery, at the very
least. Their combined efforts provide the frame into which future
renditions of the Spalding-Rigdon claims are set. That requires our
careful consideration of scholarship that previous S-R advocates
would have naturally overlooked.

If I am correct in what I am saying, then the biblical religion was
a far greater motivation/model in the composition of the Book of
Mormon, than was any early 19th century notion regarding the
mound-builders, vanished races, etc. --- That means Ethan Smith
and Solomon Spalding must be de-elevated from positions of
purportedly having originated the polemics of the "Nephites," down
to the lower status of having been mere "influences."

The Spalding-Rigdon "theory" of 2020 will be a much scaled-down
version of its former self -- better fitted to known history, and
practically encompassed by the Smith-authorship explanations.

Paradoxically, the S-R claims will thus become stronger and more
reasonable, rather than being demolished (as Mormons might hope).

In all of this transformation, I expect that the Brodieites will be
our (S-R advocates') greatest enemy (and not the LDS Church).

UD


While I feel that the more we find out about the Book of Mormon, we will find that the S/R theory becomes even less likely than is now acknowledged.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Uncle Dale wrote:...
the Brodieites will be our (S-R advocates') greatest enemy
...


Thus, I suppose the best advice would be not to engage them
directly -- but rather to data-mine and co-opt any new valid
historical and textual discoveries they may come up with.

For example, Sandra Tanner is now admitting that Joe Smith's
word-print may have changed a bit, when he was making use of
various pre-existing sources, for inclusion in the Nephite record.

This is about the best we can hope for from that crowd -- but it
may represent a shift away from past adamant refusals to include
"voices" in the text, other than Smith's own or his biblical borrowings.

While the Brodieites will never admit that a single sentence from
Spalding or Rigdon ever made it into the Book of Mormon, they
may begin to concede that some non-Smith "voices" occur there,
due to Smith's being influenced in his writing by exterior texts,
such as the Westminster Confession and the Preface to the KJV.

I.W. Riley started the ball rolling in this regard, way back in 1902;
but he never foresaw the day when automated methods would
begin to separate the Nephite record into sections of probable
differing authorship.

I have just been re-reading Willard C. Smith's 1979 rebuttal to Riley
on such matters as the Westminster Confession (in his long BYU
paper, "In the Shadow of Solomon Spalding"). While I do not
believe that the Westminster Confession can be added to the mix
of author-candidates, I am having my curiosity again stirred up
by revisiting that old controversy.

Image

In many ways Riley was the first Brodieite -- and I suspect that
he would have opposed the argument that Oliver Cowdery, or
any other non-Smith writer could have contributed to the Nephite
story. Perhaps we ought to inquire into the basis of that position.

UD
Last edited by Bedlamite on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

GlennThigpen wrote:...
Dale, I think that you have overstated the case somewhat. Bruce's results still only give relative probabilities for the candidate set. If you read Bruce's paper again, you will find that he notes that there is no pattern to the hits for any of those in the candidate set, i.e. all of those hits are random.
...


So then, if NSC analysis confirms a very high probability of Smith
having written the 1830 Preface, the 1835 Lectures on Faith,
and the letter from Liberty Jail, are we to discount such findings
as "random hits?"

At what point CAN we make use of Bruce's computerized method
to identify unattributed/questioned Joseph Smith writings? After
all, Bruce went to all the trouble to derive a Joe Smith word-print;
and it would be a shame to just discard that interesting work now.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_MCB
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _MCB »

Sorry for the silence. I'll check into the Riley book-- I don't think I have read it yet.

Right now I am delving into Tanners' analysis of Laban and Judith. That is VERY good. Busy revising appendices to write my response to her work on that subject-- which I had TOTALLY missed. Reviewing Clavigero appendices, too. VERY tedious work.


Just been lurking.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_GlennThigpen
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _GlennThigpen »

Uncle Dale wrote:
GlennThigpen wrote:...
Dale, I think that you have overstated the case somewhat. Bruce's results still only give relative probabilities for the candidate set. If you read Bruce's paper again, you will find that he notes that there is no pattern to the hits for any of those in the candidate set, i.e. all of those hits are random.
...


So then, if NSC analysis confirms a very high probability of Smith
having written the 1830 Preface, the 1835 Lectures on Faith,
and the letter from Liberty Jail, are we to discount such findings
as "random hits?"

At what point CAN we make use of Bruce's computerized method
to identify unattributed/questioned Joseph Smith writings? After
all, Bruce went to all the trouble to derive a Joe Smith word-print;
and it would be a shame to just discard that interesting work now.

UD


It would be an interesting test. But to do so properly, a profile for Mormon and Moroni would need to be developed also to for the Book of Mormon tests. I would be surprised if the NSC methodology were to attribute all of the Lectures on Faith to Joseph. There is a belief with some that Sidney Rigdon authored some of them and maybe even collaborated on a couple of more.
But, let's get someone to do the work so that we can discuss a fait accompli and not just speculate futilely.

Glenn
In order to give character to their lies, they dress them up with a great deal of piety; for a pious lie, you know, has a good deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one. Hence their lies came signed by the pious wife of a pious deceased priest. Sidney Rigdon QW J8-39
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Uncle Dale wrote:...
In all of this transformation, I expect that the Brodieites will be
our (S-R advocates') greatest enemy (and not the LDS Church).


Thus we see LDS scholar Kurt Elieson speculating that
Oliver Cowdery "translated" Alma 45:22 -- and that the
Cowdery textual contribution actually made it into the
"dictated manuscript" (with Smith acting temporarily as
the holy scribe).

While I doubt that this little manuscript discovery fully
covers the events hinted at in Book of Commandments
7 and 8, it is nevertheless interesting.

Also, recall that Alma 45:22 is but one of the few
fragments of extant "dictated manuscript" pages, and
that the scribe for that passage (Skousen calls him
"Scribe #4) may have penned other portions of the
text, now forever lost.

I have yet to hear a Brodieite admit that Oliver made
such a contribution to the published text.

If the Smith+alone crowd cannot admit Alma 45:22 as
possible input from Cowdery, then I suppose they will
admit no other passages to his creation either.

Do I smell a rat in this Smith+alone dogma?

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_marg
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _marg »

mikwut wrote:Marg,

I am more interested in the elaboration of the studies I posted and your assessment.


I'm currently reading a book by Daniel Schacter http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/schacter.html. I'll have time tuesday to friday to post this week, so tuesday I'll respond. Next weekend I'll be unable to.
_Roger
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Re: Response to Jockers, Criddle, et al., Now Available

Post by _Roger »

Too busy to post much right now, but Dan wrote:

Yes, but this was in Feb. 1828 before any translation began. I believe Joseph Smith went behind the curtain to copy the characters from the plates. When Harris returned from the East and began as scribe, Joseph Smith did it with head in hat. Harris describes this and even tells a story about how he switched the stone in the hat with one he found while skipping stones on the Susquehanna. When Joseph Smith tried to translate he found that he couldn’t, and said to Harris: “All is as dark as Egypt.” Then, as Harris told it, he confessed to Joseph Smith that he had switched the stone. Harris was a fool to think that he could trick Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was more familiar with the appearance of his stone than was Harris, and there’s no way Harris could find a stone close enough in size and peculiar color to Joseph Smith’s stone. Joseph Smith played along and Harris got his proof. Joseph Smith asked why he did it, and Harris said: “To stop the mouths of fools.”


If I recall correctly all of Joseph Smith's seer stones had holes in them. No?
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
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