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I was by a temple the other day, and, for some reason, while looking at the statue of Moroni, the words of Exodus 20:4 came to mind:

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Now, is it just me, or are the statues found on most temples really any different from the golden calf that the ancient Isrealites made?

If Moroni was really an angel, wouldn't that be placing him in a position of worship? Isn't a statue of an angel "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above"?

As a side note, it is my understanding that the church teaches that if you follow the ways of Mormonism, all the rules and covenants, such as getting married in the temple, that you would be "exalted" and become a god. i am reminded of the couplet that teaches "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become". (I think that's right ... President Snow?)

Why did Moroni end up as an angel, and not as a god? Wouldn't that make him a poor choice to give the plates to Joseph Smith, and especially to put on top of temples?

Why did Moroni end up as an angel, and not as a god?

The argument I've heard on this one is that when the scriptures are discussing "the Angel Moroni", they are using the term "angel" as equivolent with "messenger".

Moroni is bringing God's message, therefore, he is an angel of God.

This would not preclude Moroni from being fully exhalted.

ozemc wrote:I was by a temple the other day, and, for some reason, while looking at the statue of Moroni, the words of Exodus 20:4 came to mind:

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Now, is it just me, or are the statues found on most temples really any different from the golden calf that the ancient Isrealites made?

If Moroni was really an angel, wouldn't that be placing him in a position of worship? Isn't a statue of an angel "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above"?

As a side note, it is my understanding that the church teaches that if you follow the ways of Mormonism, all the rules and covenants, such as getting married in the temple, that you would be "exalted" and become a god. i am reminded of the couplet that teaches "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become". (I think that's right ... President Snow?)

Why did Moroni end up as an angel, and not as a god? Wouldn't that make him a poor choice to give the plates to Joseph Smith, and especially to put on top of temples?

It does make you wander about that whole graven images thing. Golden calf, golden angel blowing his trumpet, completely different right?

ozemc wrote:Now, is it just me, or are the statues found on most temples really any different from the golden calf that the ancient Isrealites made?

The apologist answer is that he is not worshipped and so is not a "graven image" in the same context as the golden calf.

That's why Jesus can stand as a steroid-enhanced mega-symbol in the North Visitor's Center without violating any prohibitions about idolatry. And if they ever catch anyone praying to him they ban them from Temple Square.

ozemc wrote:I was by a temple the other day, and, for some reason, while looking at the statue of Moroni, the words of Exodus 20:4 came to mind:

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Now, is it just me, or are the statues found on most temples really any different from the golden calf that the ancient Isrealites made?

If Moroni was really an angel, wouldn't that be placing him in a position of worship? Isn't a statue of an angel "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above"?

As a side note, it is my understanding that the church teaches that if you follow the ways of Mormonism, all the rules and covenants, such as getting married in the temple, that you would be "exalted" and become a god. i am reminded of the couplet that teaches "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become". (I think that's right ... President Snow?)

Why did Moroni end up as an angel, and not as a god? Wouldn't that make him a poor choice to give the plates to Joseph Smith, and especially to put on top of temples?

Yeah the spin doctor Hinckley just never looked at that from the outside.

"Christians" drive by the holiest building of Mormonism. Do they see ANY outward sign of christianity? NO. All they see is a cold edifice of Mormon money topped with a golden guy who is blowing a horn.

The SLC temple has a Gothic look to it with all of the occult symbols on it.

Hey Moroni is pretty hot looking and he is an ANGEL after all....so why not put him on the top of things...nothing about what Mormons do makes any sense so why should the Angel Moroni make sense????

ozemc wrote:Now, is it just me, or are the statues found on most temples really any different from the golden calf that the ancient Isrealites made?

If Moroni was really an angel, wouldn't that be placing him in a position of worship? Isn't a statue of an angel "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above"?

No, since the Moroni statue is only a decoration. It's not meant to be prayed to or worshipped, so it's O.K.

Why did Moroni end up as an angel, and not as a god? Wouldn't that make him a poor choice to give the plates to Joseph Smith, and especially to put on top of temples?

No. Since the Final Judgment hasn't taken place yet, no one has entered any of the three final kingdoms (and hence no one has become a god,) including Moroni.

Of course, this doctrine is contradicted by the D&C scripture which says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are no longer angels but are gods, but most active Mormons have shelved the contradiction.

Dr. Shades wrote:Of course, this doctrine is contradicted by the D&C scripture which says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are no longer angels but are gods, but most active Mormons have shelved the contradiction.

It's a little vague what it takes to be a god since, as asbstosman's Deseret Alphabet quote from Genesis 3:5 says, just eating from the tree of knowledge makes you "as gods, knowing good from evil."

I guess "as" is an equivocation. But the scriptures are still very confusing to me regarding what it takes to be a god.

liz3564 wrote:

Why did Moroni end up as an angel, and not as a god?

The argument I've heard on this one is that when the scriptures are discussing "the Angel Moroni", they are using the term "angel" as equivolent with "messenger".

Moroni is bringing God's message, therefore, he is an angel of God.

This would not preclude Moroni from being fully exhalted.

Most Christian religions seperate people who have died from the angels. That is, angels were a specially created class of beings that are immortal, while humans were created to be God's children. One doesn't become the other.

How can Moroni be an angel is he was once a man in the first place? Also, if Moroni is God's messenger, why is he not mentioned in the Bible, like all the other named angels?

ozemc wrote:

liz3564 wrote:

Why did Moroni end up as an angel, and not as a god?

The argument I've heard on this one is that when the scriptures are discussing "the Angel Moroni", they are using the term "angel" as equivolent with "messenger".

Moroni is bringing God's message, therefore, he is an angel of God.

This would not preclude Moroni from being fully exhalted.

Most Christian religions seperate people who have died from the angels. That is, angels were a specially created class of beings that are immortal, while humans were created to be God's children. One doesn't become the other.

How can Moroni be an angel is he was once a man in the first place? Also, if Moroni is God's messenger, why is he not mentioned in the Bible, like all the other named angels?

First, let me point out that Mormons are not "most Christians". The only thing that makes us Christian is that we worship Jesus. We differ from "most Christians" on just about everything else.

Second, Angels are not some different species, according to Mormons. Angels are one of the steps of exaltation. Those who make it to the CK but not the top of the CK will become angels. Kinda like graduating from college with a BA, but not a PhD.

Third, Mormons don't believe that everything needful is mentioned in the Bible. Just because Moroni and the other messengers/angels aren't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean they aren't angels or didn't exist. Mormons believe they existed in the Book of Mormon. To many Mormons, that puts them a step above Biblical angels.