DiscussMormonism.com

I originally posted this in the Terestrial forum, but I really want to post it here as well, to gain a perspective from those who may not be comfortable posting in the other level.

I appreciate your thoughts, guys! Thanks!:)

One thing I have always had a problem with in Mormonism is the idea that after you are judged by God, you are relegated to a kingdom, be it Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial, and that's it!

This earth life is our time to be "tried and tested", and there is no chance for further progression in the next life.

If you haven't minded all of your p's and q's....dotted all the i's...crossed all the t's....even if you were a faithful LDS servant, more than likely, you're going to the Terrestrial Kingdom because you aren't good enough to be a God in the Celestial Kingdom.

So....my kids get "judged", and they haven't made all of the mistakes I have...they go to the Celestial Kingdom and I'm "cut off" from them. Being sealed to them means nothing because I'm stuck in a lower kingdom. Oh, sure, it's nice and all, but I don't have the freedom to visit my kids. I have to wait for them to see me, when they're not too busy.

That sure sounds like hell to me.

I just don't see how a God who believes in eternal progression, constant learning, and compassion, can't allow for the fact that we might learn things beyond this existance and still be worthy for a greater glory.

Thoughts?

liz3564 wrote:I originally posted this in the Terestrial forum, but I really want to post it here as well, to gain a perspective from those who may not be comfortable posting in the other level.

I appreciate your thoughts, guys! Thanks!:)

One thing I have always had a problem with in Mormonism is the idea that after you are judged by God, you are relegated to a kingdom, be it Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial, and that's it!

This earth life is our time to be "tried and tested", and there is no chance for further progression in the next life.

If you haven't minded all of your p's and q's....dotted all the i's...crossed all the t's....even if you were a faithful LDS servant, more than likely, you're going to the Terrestrial Kingdom because you aren't good enough to be a God in the Celestial Kingdom.

So....my kids get "judged", and they haven't made all of the mistakes I have...they go to the Celestial Kingdom and I'm "cut off" from them. Being sealed to them means nothing because I'm stuck in a lower kingdom. Oh, sure, it's nice and all, but I don't have the freedom to visit my kids. I have to wait for them to see me, when they're not too busy.

That sure sounds like hell to me.

I just don't see how a God who believes in eternal progression, constant learning, and compassion, can't allow for the fact that we might learn things beyond this existance and still be worthy for a greater glory.

Thoughts?

On the days when I'm getting multiple requests for withdrawals from the Bank of Mom, I contemplate the idea of a visit instead of a phone call as a pretty nice concept.

Sorry, Liz. Couldn't resist.

I'm not sure the "no progress" thing is still taught.

I would that think there is progress between kingdoms. It would make sense. Or least celestial visits from the celestial world to the terrestial. I cannot believe that heavenly father would separate good fathers and good children from one another. And although good can be defined differently by different people, I refer to it as living a decent life, but perhaps not the most righteous life. Also, no celestial person would want to be separated on a permanent basis from those they loved on earth. That would also be hell for them. I think that we will discover a very understanding god, when we are no longer on this eart. Such is my opinion.

In terms of progress, I think that we would have to consider what can make progress between kingdoms possible.

On the days when I'm getting multiple requests for withdrawals from the Bank of Mom, I contemplate the idea of a visit instead of a phone call as a pretty nice concept.

Sorry, Liz. Couldn't resist.

LOL! I know what you mean, Harmony! :)

I'm not sure the "no progress" thing is still taught.

Really? I thought it was a fundamental part of our doctrine. I hope it isn't being taught anymore, but I was under the impression that this is key to the Plan of Salvation.

Liz I am a very firm believer that if there is an afterlife (and I really hope there is) that it will exist on a foundation of eternal progression.

I did bring this subject up in a sunday school lesson once to be told that it was one of the 7 deadly heresies as espoused by a certain GA.

There does seem (nowadays) to be some wriggle room in LDS theology to allow some to hold to the idea of eternal progression. (Though as an active member I was always under the impression that to be a 'good Mormon' I shouldn't be believing it).

Stop being a chapel Mormon. Stop believing everything you were TOLD.

Perhaps what you need to do is look at the HISTORY of the doctrine of the "three degrees of glory".

Lookup Emanuel Swedenborg and his 1784 book "Heaven and Hell", and like most of what smith copied and spouted off as original and divine, Swedenborg's book detailed "separate three heavens" described as "entirely distinct from each other." He called the highest heaven "the Celestial Kingdom," and stated that the inhabitants of the three heavens corresponded to the "sun, moon and stars."

By Joseph Smith's own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg's writings. Smith told a convert by the name of Edward Hunter that "Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished."

FURTHER, when smith "revealed(REGURGITATED)" the three degrees of glory, it was opposed by most members of his own church.

In D. Michael Quinn's excellent book "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," he gives a very fascinating source of Smith's "revelations." Quinn offers an exhaustive examination of the sources for the 1832 D&C Section 76 "Vision" of the "three degrees of glory."

In fact, Smith's description of the "Celestial Kingdom" was not only a copy from earlier written works, but also VERY controversial to the Latter-Day Saints.

The diaries of Orson Pratt and John Murdock from the 1830's record their efforts to reassure members who questioned the 1832 vision of heaven. The two men described countless excommunications of Mormons, including branch presidents, who denounced "the degrees of glory" as a "Satanic revelation." Even Brigham Young had a hard time with it at first and described it as "a trial to many."

Why were Mormons choking on this idea of three heavens?

Quinn explains that it's because members correctly recognized it as coming from the occult. The only other sources of separate degrees in heaven came from occult writers of Smith's time.

Not only does Quinn make a strong case that Smith knew all about Swedenborg's ideas, but he also shows that his book "Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders" was a book in Smith's hometown library since 1817. Quinn also writes that "Nine miles from Smith's farm, in 1826 the Canandaigua newspaper also advertised Swedenborg's book for sale. The bookstore offered Swedenborg's publications for as little as 37 cents."

liz3564 wrote:[i]
This earth life is our time to be "tried and tested", and there is no chance for further progression in the next life.

If that is the case, then there is no need for baptisms of the dead, right?

why me wrote:I would that think there is progress between kingdoms. It would make sense. Or least celestial visits from the celestial world to the terrestial.

Kind of like the MADb elite can visit MDb and lurk and post but many of us terrestial types at MDb can't even visit the MADb. Sounds a little bit ironically "FAIR" ....right?

Basically the three degrees of glory stuff is bunk.

Sort of, yes. I am glad that you have figured it out. I have often told my reading comprehension class that when one reads, one should use imagination about what they are reading and and bring it to real life and you did just that.

That being said, I think that MDB would like some MAD elite to visit and stop by. Now MDB just needs to recruit them. But who knows maybe I am in the MAD elite. I need to chew on that one for a while.

The three kingdoms idea is rather unique regardless of what Porter has said above, especially in the christian faith. I kinda like it. Especially, if there can be visits between kingdoms.

Polygamy Porter wrote:Stop being a chapel Mormon. Stop believing everything you were

FURTHER, when smith "revealed(REGURGITATED)" the three degrees of glory, it was opposed by most members of his own church.
The diaries of Orson Pratt and John Murdock from the 1830's record their efforts to reassure members who questioned the 1832 vision of heaven. The two men described countless excommunications of Mormons, including branch presidents, who denounced "the degrees of glory" as a "Satanic revelation." Even Brigham Young had a hard time with it at first and described it as "a trial to many."

Why were Mormons choking on this idea of three heavens?

Quinn explains that it's because members correctly recognized it as coming from the occult. The only other sources of separate degrees in heaven came from occult writers of Smith's time.

Why me wrote:
And so what does this prove? Members left the faith because they had a hard time with the three degree of glory. And today, members leave for other reasons. Such is life. People will always be leaving the LDS church over one thing or another.

As far as the occult is concerned, I suppose one can interpret such understandings as the LDS afterlife in various ways. But it doesn't make it correct, right?

But thanks for all the speculation about where Joseph Smith got his ideas...now you just need to prove it.