Well, I've finaly found the time to post the new and infamous comparitive religion thread I've been tossing around. So here it is. (if you think this is worthy of it shades, feel free to sticky)
I think that because of the growth that this forum has seen, it would be very usefull to allow people to learn a bit more in religions that they might not otherwise know much about. I would like to express this from the beginning, this thread is for information and tasteful comparisons only. Please leave flaming/derogetory comments at the door! Below is a listing of a questionnaire I've built. Just copy it into a reply on this thread and fill out accordingly. If someone has already posted the religion of which is your target, please do not re-post unless you feel that there where large inconsistancies or what you feel might be wrongly answered items. If there are questions you would like to see added, please IM me. I am trying to keep the questionair unbiased towards any specific religious area, so keep that in mind with anything you want to submit.
When writing a comparitive, please choose one or two items within a specific answered questionair and begin a new thread with the title Comparitive religion-(starting religion)-(compared religion) and quote the issues being addressed before writing said comparitive. Feel free to post it in the other forums, but please leave this thread clean for pure information.
What is the specific branch of religion and the subset name of the religion? i.e. Christian - southern baptist, Pagan - Celtic wiccan, Buddhist - taoist etc
What was the historical basis for the formation of your religion? (is it an offshoot of a religion already in place, or does your religion teach/believe it was independantly formed?)
What do you believe where the top 2-3 major influences that either aided with the formation of the religion, whether outside influence, or influences of geology?
Does your religion follow a specific deity? or in the case of polytheism, what are the major god(s)?
What is humanities relation to their god(s)?
Who would you say where the top 1-2 people who influenced the teachings of your religion?
What are the major religious writings that your religion holds as sacred? Please source specific version of texts if there are multiple variations/translations as needed, URL's if possible
Does your religion have any writings that detail in any sense how to behave within a society? If so, please source (urls please) the top 1-2.
Are there any major events within your religious history that could be considered questionable by todays standards? cite the top 1-2, cite referances if needed.
Likewise, are there any major events that are/could be looked apon with respect by todays standards? (please use events that are verifyable and not possibly just a mythological tale) Use citations as needed.
What is the origin of life? (added 7/7/07)
What is the purpose of life? (added 7/7/07)
What are the basic ideas presented by your religion on the subject of afterlife? (this can include ideas of re-incarnation) Use citations as needed.
Does your religion teach about any form of armageddon/end of days/ragnarok event in future history?
How does your religion view harmful acts?(i.e. sin) Likewise does it teach that bad acts are caused/influenced via supernatural means?
Does your religion believe in a structured way of absolution for acts considered wrong(sinfull)?
Does your religion believe in the supernatural/mystical? if so, what does it believe are its application methods? (use citiations as needed)
Where there major instances of influence that your religion had over either politics/leadership or personal freedoms that where historicaly notable?
If there is a clergy caste within your religion, please note the most common or important members, their major responsibilities, and if they require formalised training.
Are there any major symbols (this can include jewelry, pendants, etc) or items of dress that can be used to note a worshiper of your religion?
Are there any physical requirements for followers?(i.e. uncut hair/beards, ritualistic tattoos, etc)
Are there any restraints imposed on what could be considered regular social interaction or behavior in public? (this can include such restraints like the jehova witness refusal of blood transfusions)
Does your religion teach that spiritual progression should be strictly structured or should it be based more upon personal growth and study?
To finish off, what would you say is the most important tenet within your religions teachings? Use source if needed.
Comparitive Religion
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_Mephitus
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 820
- Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:44 pm
Comparitive Religion
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
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_Yoda
Hi Sono! :)
I think it's "sticky worthy".
I also think that you have to be patient with folks on this one. The majority of those who post here have been primarily exposed to one religion---LDS. There are some newer posters here who are Catholic...and GIMR is an Evangelical Christian. I would be curious to see GIMR compare her current religion to Mormonism since she experienced both.
What you're asking is going to require some thinking and some research, but I think it will be interesting to see what people come up with.
You have studied pagan beliefs, haven't you? It would be interesting to see a comparison between Paganism and Mormonism...and Christianity in general.
Lots of possibilities! :)
I think it's "sticky worthy".
I also think that you have to be patient with folks on this one. The majority of those who post here have been primarily exposed to one religion---LDS. There are some newer posters here who are Catholic...and GIMR is an Evangelical Christian. I would be curious to see GIMR compare her current religion to Mormonism since she experienced both.
What you're asking is going to require some thinking and some research, but I think it will be interesting to see what people come up with.
You have studied pagan beliefs, haven't you? It would be interesting to see a comparison between Paganism and Mormonism...and Christianity in general.
Lots of possibilities! :)
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_Mephitus
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 820
- Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:44 pm
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_Mephitus
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 820
- Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:44 pm
Ok, long story short...i filled everything out, but had....issues posting. So i would like to advise anyone filling this thing out to first do it in a word processor and to then copy it into a reply on here. Otherwise your login might timeout in the time it takes you to write it all. I know it took me about an hour 1/2 to 2 hours to write it out properly.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
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_Mephitus
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 820
- Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:44 pm
Asatru (Odinism)
Ok, to inspire some of you to contribute to this, I've done it up. Again, if you feel that im missing something or need to modify any of the questions, Please IM me so i can change em.
What is the specific branch of religion and the subset name of the religion? i.e. Christian - southern baptist, Pagan - Celtic wiccan, Buddhist - taoist etc
Pagan - Asatru (Odinism)
What was the historical basis for the formation of your religion? (is it an offshoot of a religion already in place, or does your religion teach/believe it was independantly formed?)
Asatru was influenced heavily by beliefs of the commoners of northern europe and is intermixed with several of the common beliefs of the area. But otherwise formed independant of any other independant religion.
What do you believe where the top 2-3 major influences that either aided with the formation of the religion, whether outside influence, or influences of geology?
Since the average follower of Asatru was a commoner and usualy more often than not a farmer, it was heavily influenced by the solar year and its effect on farming/the harvest. Many of the commoners where independant of large villages and so depended on something reliable. such as the movement of the seasons, to denote important days of the year. Many of the holidays of Asatru referance the solar year. (Yule and Midsummer celebrations being prime examples) http://www.destinyslobster.com/asatru/calendar.html
Does your religion follow a specific deity? or in the case of polytheism, what are the major god(s)?
Asatru is a polytheistic religion. The primary god of Asatru being Odin (Odin is known by many names, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin )
There are also different "levels" of gods. The Aesir (the high gods), the Vanir (the low gods), and the Giants (think of them as the bad guys).
For a good listing of the gods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir (Aesir) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanir (Vanir)
What is humanities relation to their god(s)?
As the middle children of the nine worlds http://home.earthlink.net/~9worlds/worldtree.html we view ourselves as equals to the gods. We view the gods not so much as leaders or rulers, but those that we should revere and honor as examples. As such an example, if i was to meet Odin on the street, it would be quite acceptable to greet him heartily as i would a brother or kinsman. It would be expected to treat him with respect owed to an ally and to carefully consider any advice given. But with such advice not to forget your own strangth or hard earned wisdom.
Who would you say where the top 1-2 people who influenced the teachings of your religion?
Within Asatru there isn't a "Pope" or head leader of any sort. It is expected that it is the religion of the people. As such, there haven't been any particularly major people who have influenced the re-institution of Asatru that im aware of. Though there have been MANY archaeologists that have helped influence it.
What are the major religious writings that your religion holds as sacred? Please source specific version of texts if there are multiple variations/translations as needed, URL's if possible
The Eddas: http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/poetic_edda.html
The Volsung: (the sagas) http://omacl.org/Volsunga/
Since the originals of these are still available, there are multiple translations. They can be found on amazon.com or most book stores.
Does your religion have any writings that detail in any sense how to behave within a society? If so, please source (urls please) the top 1-2.
The Havamal (the words of the high one) is taken as a guide on social behavior. Not too long ago someone (forget his name atm) condensed the ideals set forth in the havamal and other texts into whats called the Noble Virtues. They are thought of also as a good guide, though far from dogma.
The Havamal: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html (this is the easiest one to read)
Nine Noble Virtues: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos653.htm
Are there any major events within your religious history that could be considered questionable by todays standards? cite the top 1-2, cite referances if needed.
During WWII there where some Asatru tenants and beliefs that where used by Adulf Hitler and perverted to his own means. One such example is the use of the Swaztika. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaztika which was originaly known as the Sun wheel (Sun cross) a very peacefull symbol in its real meaning. It was a representation of the turning of the year/seasons. Hitler turned it on edge as a statement that as the chosen people they would have the power to move the heavens. Other such examples of bastardization include: http://www.runestone.org/lep4.html
Legitimate Asatru groups today vehemontly deny and distance themselves from any such hate groups, though sadly there are many that still equate Asatru to white supremacy groupds due to the hate group use of some of the symbology.
Likewise, are there any major events that are/could be looked apon with respect by todays standards? (please use events that are verifyable and not possibly just a mythological tale) Use citations as needed.
I wish i could give a good answer to this, but i do not know enough of the history to give a good one at this time.
What are the basic ideas presented by your religion on the subject of afterlife? (this can include ideas of re-incarnation) Use citations as needed.
Asaru tend not to spend alot of time on what happens in the afterlife, the idea being to concentrate on this life. But the general idea is that when you die, the gods will take you to one of the nine worlds for their own purposes. http://home.earthlink.net/~9worlds/worldtree.html The honorable will go to As'gard and the strong warriors will train in Valhalla (Val hall) for the comming of ragnarok (more on that later). They are generaly taken up by entities called the Valkyries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie Those of low honor or illrepute will go to hel. (Not misspelled)
Does your religion teach about any form of armageddon/end of days/ragnarok event in future history?
Ragnarok, The "doom of the gods" http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/ragnarok.html
Unlike christian teachings in which the dichotamy of good and evil have their final battle, ragnarok is merely the culmination of the aesir's ongoing battles with the forces of chaos. Likewise it is also not a complete end of things, but merely another cycle as with nature. After Ragnarok, those that live will rebuild the earth, and a new set of gods will reign.
How does your religion view harmful acts?(i.e. sin) Likewise does it teach that bad acts are caused/influenced via supernatural means?
We do not believe in "sin" as christians view it, accordingly we do not believe in any inborn sin from which you must be saved from. Though if you do cause harm, restitution is owed in some form or another. Depending on need or appropriateness.
We do not believe in any supernatural causes of wrongdoing, works of man are purely those of man. And should be judged as such.
Does your religion believe in a structured way of absolution for acts considered wrong(sinfull)?
Not particularly. Though as i said in the last question, if you do cause harm, it is expected of you to repay any harm that has been done.
Does your religion believe in the supernatural/mystical? if so, what does it believe are its application methods? (use citiations as needed)
We Asatru believe in the all encompassing divine energy that works alongside and in us all. Through the use of the Runes and their related use in the sagas/eddas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark we can understand and use these energies.
Where there major instances of influence that your religion had over either politics/leadership or personal freedoms that where historicaly notable?
None that im currently aware of, but again, im still learning much of the history.
If there is a clergy caste within your religion, please note the most common or important members, their major responsibilities, and if they require formalised training.
The main name for the Asatru clergy are known as Gothi. They can be either male or female, there is no sexist division of religous duties. They have been historicaly accredited with a few mystical abilties from their years of carefull study of the runes, examples of such application can be found here. http://www.durenmar.de/articles/gothi.html
Generaly, there is no formal training. They are usualy appointed by asatru kindred due to their dedication to the old ways and their knowledge/wisdom.
Are there any major symbols (this can include jewelry, pendants, etc) or items of dress that can be used to note a worshiper of your religion?
There are several symbols that generaly note a follower of Asatru. They are usualy worn as jewelry, but can also be sewn on clothing. The major traditional one being the Valknut (the death knot): http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsvalknut.htm
Thors hammer Mjolnir: http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsmjolnir.htm This symbol has commonly been mistaken for an upside down cross as there are many variations on this theme.
And the Triple Mead Horn of Odin: http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefstriplehorn.htm
Are there any physical requirements for followers?(i.e. uncut hair/beards, ritualistic tattoos, etc)
None
Are there any restraints imposed on what could be considered regular social interaction or behavior in public? (this can include such restraints like the jehova witness refusal of blood transfusions)
There is great stress put on the behavoir you give towards guests or visitors to your house. Also, even though drinking is common in ceremonies of Asastru or of common worshiping practices, becomming very drunk is deeply frowned upon because it can lead to very foolish behavior. But otherwise there is no dogmatic tenants on how to behave other than being honorable.
Does your religion teach that spiritual progression should be strictly structured or should it be based more upon personal growth and study?
Asatru teaches that spiritual progression is completely the job of the individual. Information should be readily available, but where you stand and how you progress is completely up to you. No one is responsible for your spiritual level, likewise you are not held accountable for anyone elses.
To finish off, what would you say is the most important tenant within your religions teachings? Use source if needed.
Asatru teaches that as with nature, the idea that there is a singilar way of life or spiritualism would stagnate and wrong humanity. Much like there are thousands of different breeds of birds, there are many ways of growing as a person. So long as that person proves to be honorable, let them live as such.
What is the specific branch of religion and the subset name of the religion? i.e. Christian - southern baptist, Pagan - Celtic wiccan, Buddhist - taoist etc
Pagan - Asatru (Odinism)
What was the historical basis for the formation of your religion? (is it an offshoot of a religion already in place, or does your religion teach/believe it was independantly formed?)
Asatru was influenced heavily by beliefs of the commoners of northern europe and is intermixed with several of the common beliefs of the area. But otherwise formed independant of any other independant religion.
What do you believe where the top 2-3 major influences that either aided with the formation of the religion, whether outside influence, or influences of geology?
Since the average follower of Asatru was a commoner and usualy more often than not a farmer, it was heavily influenced by the solar year and its effect on farming/the harvest. Many of the commoners where independant of large villages and so depended on something reliable. such as the movement of the seasons, to denote important days of the year. Many of the holidays of Asatru referance the solar year. (Yule and Midsummer celebrations being prime examples) http://www.destinyslobster.com/asatru/calendar.html
Does your religion follow a specific deity? or in the case of polytheism, what are the major god(s)?
Asatru is a polytheistic religion. The primary god of Asatru being Odin (Odin is known by many names, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin )
There are also different "levels" of gods. The Aesir (the high gods), the Vanir (the low gods), and the Giants (think of them as the bad guys).
For a good listing of the gods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir (Aesir) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanir (Vanir)
What is humanities relation to their god(s)?
As the middle children of the nine worlds http://home.earthlink.net/~9worlds/worldtree.html we view ourselves as equals to the gods. We view the gods not so much as leaders or rulers, but those that we should revere and honor as examples. As such an example, if i was to meet Odin on the street, it would be quite acceptable to greet him heartily as i would a brother or kinsman. It would be expected to treat him with respect owed to an ally and to carefully consider any advice given. But with such advice not to forget your own strangth or hard earned wisdom.
Who would you say where the top 1-2 people who influenced the teachings of your religion?
Within Asatru there isn't a "Pope" or head leader of any sort. It is expected that it is the religion of the people. As such, there haven't been any particularly major people who have influenced the re-institution of Asatru that im aware of. Though there have been MANY archaeologists that have helped influence it.
What are the major religious writings that your religion holds as sacred? Please source specific version of texts if there are multiple variations/translations as needed, URL's if possible
The Eddas: http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/poetic_edda.html
The Volsung: (the sagas) http://omacl.org/Volsunga/
Since the originals of these are still available, there are multiple translations. They can be found on amazon.com or most book stores.
Does your religion have any writings that detail in any sense how to behave within a society? If so, please source (urls please) the top 1-2.
The Havamal (the words of the high one) is taken as a guide on social behavior. Not too long ago someone (forget his name atm) condensed the ideals set forth in the havamal and other texts into whats called the Noble Virtues. They are thought of also as a good guide, though far from dogma.
The Havamal: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html (this is the easiest one to read)
Nine Noble Virtues: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos653.htm
Are there any major events within your religious history that could be considered questionable by todays standards? cite the top 1-2, cite referances if needed.
During WWII there where some Asatru tenants and beliefs that where used by Adulf Hitler and perverted to his own means. One such example is the use of the Swaztika. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaztika which was originaly known as the Sun wheel (Sun cross) a very peacefull symbol in its real meaning. It was a representation of the turning of the year/seasons. Hitler turned it on edge as a statement that as the chosen people they would have the power to move the heavens. Other such examples of bastardization include: http://www.runestone.org/lep4.html
Legitimate Asatru groups today vehemontly deny and distance themselves from any such hate groups, though sadly there are many that still equate Asatru to white supremacy groupds due to the hate group use of some of the symbology.
Likewise, are there any major events that are/could be looked apon with respect by todays standards? (please use events that are verifyable and not possibly just a mythological tale) Use citations as needed.
I wish i could give a good answer to this, but i do not know enough of the history to give a good one at this time.
What are the basic ideas presented by your religion on the subject of afterlife? (this can include ideas of re-incarnation) Use citations as needed.
Asaru tend not to spend alot of time on what happens in the afterlife, the idea being to concentrate on this life. But the general idea is that when you die, the gods will take you to one of the nine worlds for their own purposes. http://home.earthlink.net/~9worlds/worldtree.html The honorable will go to As'gard and the strong warriors will train in Valhalla (Val hall) for the comming of ragnarok (more on that later). They are generaly taken up by entities called the Valkyries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie Those of low honor or illrepute will go to hel. (Not misspelled)
Does your religion teach about any form of armageddon/end of days/ragnarok event in future history?
Ragnarok, The "doom of the gods" http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/ragnarok.html
Unlike christian teachings in which the dichotamy of good and evil have their final battle, ragnarok is merely the culmination of the aesir's ongoing battles with the forces of chaos. Likewise it is also not a complete end of things, but merely another cycle as with nature. After Ragnarok, those that live will rebuild the earth, and a new set of gods will reign.
How does your religion view harmful acts?(i.e. sin) Likewise does it teach that bad acts are caused/influenced via supernatural means?
We do not believe in "sin" as christians view it, accordingly we do not believe in any inborn sin from which you must be saved from. Though if you do cause harm, restitution is owed in some form or another. Depending on need or appropriateness.
We do not believe in any supernatural causes of wrongdoing, works of man are purely those of man. And should be judged as such.
Does your religion believe in a structured way of absolution for acts considered wrong(sinfull)?
Not particularly. Though as i said in the last question, if you do cause harm, it is expected of you to repay any harm that has been done.
Does your religion believe in the supernatural/mystical? if so, what does it believe are its application methods? (use citiations as needed)
We Asatru believe in the all encompassing divine energy that works alongside and in us all. Through the use of the Runes and their related use in the sagas/eddas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark we can understand and use these energies.
Where there major instances of influence that your religion had over either politics/leadership or personal freedoms that where historicaly notable?
None that im currently aware of, but again, im still learning much of the history.
If there is a clergy caste within your religion, please note the most common or important members, their major responsibilities, and if they require formalised training.
The main name for the Asatru clergy are known as Gothi. They can be either male or female, there is no sexist division of religous duties. They have been historicaly accredited with a few mystical abilties from their years of carefull study of the runes, examples of such application can be found here. http://www.durenmar.de/articles/gothi.html
Generaly, there is no formal training. They are usualy appointed by asatru kindred due to their dedication to the old ways and their knowledge/wisdom.
Are there any major symbols (this can include jewelry, pendants, etc) or items of dress that can be used to note a worshiper of your religion?
There are several symbols that generaly note a follower of Asatru. They are usualy worn as jewelry, but can also be sewn on clothing. The major traditional one being the Valknut (the death knot): http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsvalknut.htm
Thors hammer Mjolnir: http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsmjolnir.htm This symbol has commonly been mistaken for an upside down cross as there are many variations on this theme.
And the Triple Mead Horn of Odin: http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefstriplehorn.htm
Are there any physical requirements for followers?(i.e. uncut hair/beards, ritualistic tattoos, etc)
None
Are there any restraints imposed on what could be considered regular social interaction or behavior in public? (this can include such restraints like the jehova witness refusal of blood transfusions)
There is great stress put on the behavoir you give towards guests or visitors to your house. Also, even though drinking is common in ceremonies of Asastru or of common worshiping practices, becomming very drunk is deeply frowned upon because it can lead to very foolish behavior. But otherwise there is no dogmatic tenants on how to behave other than being honorable.
Does your religion teach that spiritual progression should be strictly structured or should it be based more upon personal growth and study?
Asatru teaches that spiritual progression is completely the job of the individual. Information should be readily available, but where you stand and how you progress is completely up to you. No one is responsible for your spiritual level, likewise you are not held accountable for anyone elses.
To finish off, what would you say is the most important tenant within your religions teachings? Use source if needed.
Asatru teaches that as with nature, the idea that there is a singilar way of life or spiritualism would stagnate and wrong humanity. Much like there are thousands of different breeds of birds, there are many ways of growing as a person. So long as that person proves to be honorable, let them live as such.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
-
_lynnr
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:09 am
Joseph Smith Challenges our Theological World View
Below is a lecture I'll be giving to a room full of Protestant ministers and LDS/RLDS believers here in Independence, MO in our up and coming "Building Bridges Conference." Thought I'd share it. Perhaps I should ask your forgiveness for its length. Lynn
____________
* Title taken from the “Worlds of Joseph Smith Symposium,” at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. on May 6-7, 2,005,
Sometimes I think we evangelicals need a good jolt over the head to jar our thinking loose. Examining the life and times of Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, could be just the jar we need.
I’m convinced the late John Henry Evans said it best:
“…The Joseph Smith of the popular imagination is no more a reality than Santa Claus or Uncle Sam.”
I know it’s true of my life. Or was.
Reared in a small conservative Baptist church back in the hills of the Ozarks, I was taught with strong convictions that Mormons were no different from Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientists, or Armstrong followers. They all sooner or later knocked on your door. We were instructed by our parents to “…let none of them in the house. And don’t buy their materials…” All were cults. Certainly the Mormons were not
within mainstream Christianity.
I was taught that the Book of Mormon was a lie. We have the Bible and no man was to add to the scriptures lest his soul be damned. And I was taught that the rapture could occur any minute. Establishing a literal kingdom on this earth was pure nonsense. I was also taught that Joseph Smith was the founder of a cult, and we Baptists considered him to be an imposter, egoist, plagiarist, or fanatic. He certainly was not a man sent from God. And I believe my convictions were typical. Most evangelical Christians today share similar sentiments.
After twenty years of serious reflection, having studied the life and times of Joseph Smith, my sentiments have changed. I no longer believe what I was taught. Why? I began to listen. For too long, we evangelicals have been shouting at the Mormons, talking at them and not listening. Posturing, not dialoguing. It’s time we laid down our polemic weapons and stopped shooting across the aisles at one another. It’s time we come to the point where we evangelicals and Mormons genuinely listen to one another. Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary, calls it cultivating a “spirit of civility” toward each other.
Go to the cult section in most evangelical Christian bookstores and pick up at random a book on Mormonism. Browse through its pages. Books written against Mormonism are often shallow, full of circles, contradictions, inconsistencies and the kind of logic that’s like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. You can sense—our motives are not pure. Our spirits are not clean. This must change. Our hearts must become open to dialogue.
We must come to the place where we realize—differences are not necessarily division. And, happily, I see positive signs occurring. The atmosphere in both camps is changing.
I’ve come to the conclusion--our Mormon friends may be different, but I no longer unequivocally believe they worship “another Jesus.” I know Mormons who are “born again” and washed in the blood of Jesus. I also know Baptists who adhere to the correct doctrines of the church but whose lives do not bear the fruit of the redeemed. Which highlights the saying, “you can be as straight as a gun barrel and just as empty.” It also says—God can take a crooked stick and draw a straight line.
It comes to this--we cannot pigeonhole the human heart.
I’m trying to say—I know “born again” Mormons and lost Baptists. I’m also saying—it’s time we evangelicals opened our hearts to the possibility of new and fresh theological propositions. Examining the life and ministry of Joseph Smith with no pre-drawn conclusions, ironically, may bring about revival—a revival of forgiveness and reconciliation.
For starters, perhaps Joseph Smith was not who we think he was.
I have listed what I believe to be seven theological challenges that are presented to us evangelicals as demonstrated in the life and times of this man, Joseph Smith.
1) Paralleling the Times and Present Movements
2) Restoring the Expression of Book of Acts Christianity
3) A Modern-day Pentecostal Outpouring
4) Three Levels of Infallibility
5) The Whole Christ
6) Issues of Open Revelation, and
7) Mission Conscious Theology
By the way, it is not my intent to go into depth, but to simply present an overview, a summary, of each. I would rather raise issues for us to ponder and pray over than debate them. The tone of this essay is not apologetic, but admittedly testimonial. My purpose is to allow Joseph Smith’s life and ministry to challenge us—both theologically and as believers interested in building bridges.
I. Paralleling the Times and Present Movements
I’ve always said, if Joseph Smith were alive today, I believe he would hang out with such men as Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, C. Peter Wagner, Bill Hamon, and Francis Frangipane. Men of God who are on the cutting edge of what God is doing in the earth today. I’ve also said, revelations that were revealed to Joseph back then are now coming forth and being confirmed by men and women of God.
For instance, for the past thirty-five years the Body of Christ worldwide has witnessed two moves of the Spirit: 1) charismatic renewal, and 2) prophetic movement. Out of the charismatic renewal—which primarily renewed the Feast of Pentecost—came bursting forth the prophetic movement—which is presently renewing the Feast of Tabernacles within the saints.
The charismatic renewal began sweeping across America in the mid-sixties, and picked up steam in the seventies. The prophetic movement began its surge in the mid-eighties, and is maturing in our day. There were those within the charismatic renewal who “went on to know the Lord” even in a more profound way—men like Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, and C. Peter Wagner. There are many more godly men and women I could list. I simply pick these three at random. However, most within the charismatic renewal stopped at the Feast of Pentecost years ago and have been camped out at a first fruits anointing ever since.
It would do us well to list some features of the present-day prophetic movement. Common to the movement are the following characteristics:
1) It tends to be non-denominational.
2) It fellowships around the Manifested Presence, rather than
creed.
3) It is worldwide.
4) It recognizes the prophetic; particularly the offices of prophet and apostle.
5) It has an understanding of the meaning "restoration" and believes in restoration, not reformation. The book of Joel is one of its favorite books. So is the Song of Solomon, which emphasizes a passion and intimacy with the Savior.
6) It embraces kingdom theology; i.e., return to Eden and a return to paradisiacal glory.
7) It embraces remnant theology; that is, believes in Sons of God that will overcome this world's present-day government.
8) It holds up the Elijah ministry, believing in a return of Elijah and his prophetic ministry before the return of the Lord.
Many of the above listings are and were revelations taught and believed by both Rick Joyner and Joseph Smith. The two men have a lot in common. Both men are Feast of Tabernacle Christians. Both were and are ahead of their times. Both are highly misunderstood. And both are extremely prophetic.
If you will ponder the above listings, you will notice restoration theology present.
II. Restoring the Expression of Book of Acts Christianity
We must not forget--Christianity in the plan of Joseph Smith goes deeper than churchgoing and an allegiance to a doctrinal agenda. Christianity to Joseph was not to be a church, a religion, or a sect, but a complete change of society. Or more precisely, a society within a society. That's a different mindset. In other words, the social, the economic, even the political, were undeniably commingled with the spiritual. All of life for Joseph Smith and the early restoration saints was under one umbrella--the Lordship of Christ.
Example: the saints got run out of Kirtland, Ohio, not because they built a temple, but because they built a bank. Not because they created secret ordinances behind closed doors, but because they created an entire new society right in their own backyard. It was a new bank, a new society (a new “ecclesia” if you please) that got next to their non-Mormon neighbors.
It bears emphasis--everywhere Joseph Smith went he built a city, not a church.
That says much. Paul, the apostle, wrote to the church at Ephesus, the church at Corinth, the church at Rome, the church at Philippi, the church at Thessalonica. I’m saying—the emphasis is as much on the city as it is on the church presiding in the city. I’m also saying—since the reformation, protestant Christianity has been out of balance. As evangelicals, our allegiance has leaned far too heavily in the direction of doctrine rather than community.
Authentic Christianity, however, is an expression of both doctrine and community. Not one without the other. We evangelicals have lost the balance. While it’s true--community without Christian doctrine quickly turns into a commune—that idealistic notion of the hippies during the ‘60s. It’s also true--doctrine without community quickly turns to denominational sectarianism, that sin so common today among us American Christians. Nevertheless, one extreme does not validate the other. Both are to be avoided. Both expressions (communes and sects) are caricatures of Book of Acts Christianity. I submit, Joseph Smith restored, or attempted to restore, Book of Acts Christianity—that balance between doctrine and community.
The late Francis Schaeffer, Presbyterian minister, also saw the imbalance of present-day Christianity among most American churches and founded L’Abri Fellowship in Switzerland, a place of “shelter” for believers to come live in an atmosphere of community while studying the basic tenants of Christian doctrine.
Joseph Smith, I believe, saw that same need, and imbalance, during his day as he built his cities of faith.
III. A Modern-day Pentecostal Outpouring
I tell my Pentecostal/Charismatic friends, the great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our day did not begin in 1900 out west in California on Azusa Street. It began in the Midwest in a little town called Kirtland, Ohio, sixty-four years earlier! The year was 1836. Most of my evangelical friends have never heard the story of the great outpouring that accompanied the early Saints. It was a Pentecost, indeed, and a time of rejoicing. I would say—a time unparalleled in our day. So few of today’s Christians know about it.
Zebedee Coltrin, eyewitness, wrote,
“…I have seen the power of God as it was on the day of Pentecost…I saw the Lord…The angels of God rested upon the [Kirtland] Temple and we heard their voices singing heavenly music…”
Hear Lorenzo Snow, another eyewitness:
“…There [in the temple] we had the gift of prophecy—the gift of tongues—the interpretation of tongues—visions and marvelous dreams were related—the singing of heavenly choirs was heard, and wonderful manifestations of the healing power, through the administrations of the Elders, were witnessed. The sick were healed—the deaf made to hear—the blind to see and the lame to walk, in very many instances. It was plainly manifest that a sacred and divine influence—a spiritual atmosphere pervaded that holy edifice.” --Biography of Lorenzo Snow, p.11
Daniel Tyler wrote, “…All felt that they had a foretaste of heaven…and we wondered whether the millennium had commenced…”
Over one thousand people attended these meetings. The Savior appeared in five different meetings held in the temple. Visions, including a vision of the Father and Son, were beheld at eight meetings, and the congregation saw heavenly beings or angels in nine meetings. In other sessions many Saints reported that they experienced such manifestations as the gift of tongues, the sounds of a mighty wind, a pillar of fire resting down upon the temple roof, prophesying, and the voices of angels (Joseph Smith’s Kirtland, p.170).
So great was the outpouring that the Mormon Prophet was constrained to write,
“…It was a Pentecost and an endowment indeed, long to be remembered, for the sound shall go forth from this place into all the world, and the occurrences of this day shall be handed down upon the pages of sacred history, to all generations; as the day of Pentecost, so shall this day be numbered and celebrated as a year of jubilee, and time of rejoicing to the Saints of the Most High God.” --History of the Church, 2:432-33
Joseph, under the inspiration of his pen, writes “…the occurrences of this day shall be handed down upon the pages of sacred history…” That hasn’t happened yet. That prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. I believe, because of the lack of knowledge among today’s Christians regarding these widespread occurrences, events of 1836 have yet to reach their full impact. There will come a day when the Body of Christ will know.
Eyewitness John A. Boynton’s prophecy shall be fulfilled. “…Within that house God will pour out his spirit in great majesty and glory and encircle his people with fire more gloriously and marvelously than at Pentecost because the work to be performed in the last days is greater than was in that day.” --May 6, 1834, Kirtland, Ohio
Hear the story of a little girl.
Prescindia Huntington describes her experience that week.
“…A little girl came to my door and in wonder called me out, exclaiming, ‘The meeting is on top of the meeting house!’ I went to the door, and there I saw on the temple angels clothed in white covering the roof from end to end. They seemed to be walking to and fro; they appeared and disappeared. The third time they appeared and disappeared before I realized that they were not mortal men. Each time in a moment they vanished, and their reappearance was the same. This was in broad daylight, in the afternoon. A number of the children in Kirtland saw the same…”--Women of Mormonism, p.p.207-8
One of the most powerful gatherings took place on January 28th, 1836. Joseph wrote in his journal, “…Elder Roger Orton saw a mighty angel riding upon a horse of fire…President William Smith, one of the Twelve, say the heavens opened, and the Lord’s host protecting the Lord’s anointed…I retired to my home, filled with the Spirit, and my soul cried hosanna to God and the Lamb, through the silent watches of the night; and while my eyes were closed in sleep, the visions of the Lord were sweet unto me, and His glory was round about me.” --History of the Church, p.p.2:386-87
The glory of the Lord so settled on the Saints during one particular worship service that unbelievers in Kirtland called the local fire department. The church building was on fire—so they thought. Unbelievers, and believers alike, stood nearby and watched the flames not consume the rooftop.
The spiritual gifts truly operated in the early Saints’ lives—in their worship services and in their personal lives.
IV. Three Levels of Infallibility
Early Mormonism provided a system of three levels of infallibility. Unlike conservative Protestantism, which relies solely on one level of infallibility (the Bible), the early saints relied upon the written scriptures, their creeds and traditions of the elders (Doctrine & Covenants), and a living magisterium (the Word of the Lord spoken through the Prophet and twelve apostles).
In this respect, Mormonism (both early and present) parallels the Catholic faith. Both are religions of authority. Both look to a system of three levels of infallibility, which is so consistently worked out.
Clark Pinnock, apologist, points out that this might be a good thing, a strength rather than a weakness.
“…I marvel at the fact,” says Pinnock, “that there are not larger numbers of Protestant conservatives converting to Rome. After all, the logic is so compelling. If one assumes, as all conservatives do (Protestant or Catholic), that a definitive cognitive revelation has been given to us in Jesus Christ, then it becomes necessary just in order to ensure its continuing efficacy over time (1) to have it fixed and deposited in infallible Scripture to guarantee access; (2) to see that it is correctly interpreted in binding confessions to ward off hermeneutical pluralism; and (3) to have it preserved in the bosom of an infallible institution that could deal with any new challenges that are bound to arise.”
--Tracking the Maze, p.35
The thinking is logically impeccable, says Pinnock. “Though an evangelical Protestant myself, I cannot deny the sheer brilliance of the Roman system of authority (at least in theory) for securing orthodox theology from error and human subjectivity” (p.35).
The same can be said of Mormonism. The systematic development of ecclesiastical and theocratic powers of Mormonism, primarily during the lifetime of its founder Joseph Smith (1805-44), provided for its followers a sense of safety, security, and spirituality virtually unparalleled in modern religious history.
V. Restoring the Whole Christ
Joseph Smith claimed he was called to restore primitive Christianity. And Primitive Christianity, I believe, is a combination of: good soteriology, pneumonology, eschatology, and cosmology. Soteriology is the study of that grand biblical theme, salvation. Pneumonology is the study of the Spirit of God. Eschatology is the study of Last Things. And Cosmology, the study of the universe. Preaching the Whole Christ, I believe, embraces all of the above disciplines.
The gospel according to Joseph Smith embraced and preached all of the above. Today’s Christianity, on the other hand, is so fragmented, embracing parts of the above. Evangelicals, for example, are excellent stewards of soteriology, that scriptural theme of salvation. Pentecostals and Charismatic churches have pneumonology down. Certain prophetic groups are good stewards of eschatology. And a few other groups include cosmology. But no one group embraces and preaches all of the above quite like the Latter-day Saints.
As said, Joseph Smith’s theology embraces soteriology, pneumonology, eschatology, and cosmology.
Take, for example, cosmology. Protestantism does not, in my opinion, go far enough when it concerns the cosmos. In fact, protestant theology says very little about the nature and relationship of the cosmos in regards to our personal faith.
Cosmology, on the other hand, is central to Mormonism! The restored gospel of Jesus Christ claims to answer rather decisively what some would call those “dreadful questions”; i.e., Where did we come from? Who am I? And where am I going? As evangelicals, I think we must frequently remind ourselves…Christianity is a cosmic religion! Jesus is Lord of three worlds: heaven, earth, and hell. Jesus Christ holds the atoms together. He holds gravity together. And he holds my heart together. Our faith is cosmic. Protestantism, to my lack of satisfaction, doesn’t emphasize enough the Cosmic Christ, as do the Mormons.
Christianity also includes a study of the doctrine of Last Things—eschatology.
The millenarian world of early Mormonism is alive and well—even in our day. Its Eschatology of Last Things—of how this world will wind down in the endtime—is perhaps a much better story than we Protestants have to tell. We believe the God of the Bible is primarily a God of removal. Mormons believe the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a God of restoration. Our eschatology unfortunately reeks of the Helicopter Escape mentality. We’re leaving this world behind just in the nick of time when all hell will break loose.
Perhaps Mormons do possess a much better understanding of the millennial transformation of the earth. The early saints clearly delighted in the prospects of literally inheriting the earth. Even eternity was to be enjoyed on earth, since spatially the Celestial Kingdom turned out to be a terrestrial kingdom after all. What made all this worth seeking, of course, was the totality of the future transformation of life on earth. Far from its present fallenness, the earth would be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory, including the herbivorization of carnivores, the commingling of mortals and immortals, and a topography that would have tantalized any pre-transportation revolution traveler. It really is a better story to tell.
Early Saints were called Israelites, Latter-day Israelites. Early saints were a millenarian group, who understood that the millennium had much more to do than WHEN the Lord might come. The view of salvation with the early saints was millenarian in that (a) it was collective, to be enjoyed by the faithful as a group, (b) it was terrestrial, to be realized here on earth, (c) it was total, to completely transform life on earth, (d) it was imminent; that is it was to come swiftly rather than gradually, and (e) it was miraculous, to be accomplished by signs and wonders.
--The Millenarian World of Early Mormonism, p. 5
Take the matter of pneumonology—the study of the Holy Spirit. The early restoration saints walked in a world of miracles and faith. That’s one of the main reasons I was attracted to the gospel according to Joseph Smith. As a “charismatic Christian,” I thought—my goodness, this man embraced it all! He’s got what the Evangelicals have (soteriology). He’s got what the classical Pentecostals and charismatics have (pneumonology). He’s got what the current prophetic movement has (eschatology) and he’s even got what the Jehovah Witnesses have (cosmology)—the study of the universe that answers those dreadful questions.
As an evangelical Christian, it’s my observation--no one group today embraces Primitive Christianity quite like Joseph Smith’s theology embraced Primitive Christianity.
VI. Issues of Open Revelation
Let me say right up front—I believe we evangelicals blur the distinction of open revelation versus inspiration. I believe these two issues are as slippery as trying to catch squid barehanded in an ocean. It’s almost impossible to grab hold of the meaning of each entirely. For instance, all of us know that the Bible is inspired but we’re not quite sure how. Nothing is that clear when we descend into the deep.
Nevertheless, we’ll give it a shot. That is, we’ll try to deal briefly with the subject. To quote Clark Pinnock, Christianity claims to be a revealed religion. And as evangelicals, Pinnock encourages us to stay away from neo-Protestantism’s view of revelation. “Revelation bereft of content is the bane of contemporary theology,” he says (Biblical Revelation, p.23). At the core of the biblical conception is revelation as divine activity in history. “The word-deed complex in divine revelation must not be shattered. God did not act without speaking, nor speak without acting” (p.35).
We’re, however, not discussing revelation as epistemology. I’m more interested in what Jack Deere, formerly an associate professor of Old Testament at Dallas Theological seminary, has to say about “two-way prayer” (Surprised By the Power of the Spirit). For, you see, as a Baptist, I too was always taught that prayer was “one way.” That is, God spoke to me when I read his word and I spoke to Him when I prayed. But I never believed that God was as interested and involved in my day-to-day life as he had been in the lives of the New Testament believers. I never expected God to actually “speak back” when I prayed.
Example: it used to bother me to no end when I would hear one of my Pentecostal friends say, “The Lord just now spoke to me.” I always wanted to say, “He did!” half envious but afraid to let go of my cessationist theology. I must admit, though. I was a bit jealous that the Lord would pay that much attention to my friend. The Lord never spoke to me like that. Ironically, I understand now. Of course He didn’t. I never believed that He would!
The Lord spoke often to the early saints and to Joseph Smith. Open revelations were common in their meetings, as well as in their personal lives. The heavens seemed to have opened. Just a couple of examples. Prescindia Huntington writes in her autobiography (1836-1839):
“…At another time a cousin of ours came to visit us at Kirtland. She wanted to go to one of the saints’ fast meetings, to hear someone sing or speak in tongues, but she said she expected to have a hearty laugh. Accordingly we went with our cousin to the meeting, during which a Brother McCarter rose and sang a song of Zion in tongues; I arose and sang simultaneously with him the same tune and words, beginning and ending each verse in perfect unison, without varying a word. It was just as though we had sung it together a thousand times. After we came out of the meeting, our cousin observed, ‘Instead of laughing, I never felt so solemn in my life.’” (page 209).
And…
In the spring of 1832, Joseph went to Missouri. After several weeks of ministering he began his journey back to Kirtland, Ohio, with some of his elders. While on route by stagecoach, the horses were spooked and ran off. Brother Whitney, one of those traveling with Joseph, attempted to catch the runaway horses by jumping out of the coach. He broke his leg and foot in several places. Sidney Rigdon went on to Kirtland while Joseph remained behind, attending to his friend. They stayed in Greenville for four weeks. Joseph was getting anxious to get back to Kirtland. One morning in early June he remarked to Newel Knight:
“…I went into his room,” said Joseph, “after a walk in the grove, and told him if we would agree to start for home in the morning, we would take a wagon to the river, about four miles, and there would be a ferry boat waiting which would take us directly to the landing, where we would find a boat waiting, and we would be going up the river before ten o’clock, and have a prosperous journey home.”
Brother Whitney, with some reluctance, consented to Joseph’s instructions. The next morning they took leave and found everything as Joseph had told them. They encountered the wagon, the ferry boat, the hack and the boat—and they had a prosperous journey.
On another occasion, David Whitmore felt led of the Lord to travel from his home in Fayette, N.Y. to Harmony, P.A. He felt impressed to invite Joseph and his friend Oliver Cowdery, to his home. Lucy Smith, Joseph’s mother, records the event:
“…David immediately set out for Pennsylvania, and arrived there in two days, without injuring his horses in the least, though the distance was one hundred and thirty-five miles,” says Joseph’s mother. When he arrived, he was under the necessity of introducing himself to Joseph, as this was the first time that they had ever met.
Before Mr. Whitmore had arrived in town, Joseph and Oliver were there to greet him. They were waiting some distance from town. Joseph had foretold his trip to his friend, Oliver. David Whitmore later told of their meeting to Orson Pratt.
“…When I arrived,” says David, “at Harmony, Joseph and Oliver were coming toward me, and met me some distance from the house. Oliver told me that Joseph had informed him…when I started from home, where I had stopped the first night, how I read the sign at the tavern, where I stopped the next night, and that I would be there that day before dinner, and this was why they had come out to meet me; all of which was exactly as Joseph had told Oliver, at which I was greatly astonished,” said Mr. Whitmore.
Inspiration, open revelations, spiritual gifts: all operated in the lives of the early saints, including Joseph Smith. They heard the voice of God, as well as lived their lives by obedience to God’s commandments. John in his gospel wrote an interesting comment:
“…Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said” [italics mine] (Jn.2:22).
Too often, I believe we as evangelicals believe the Logos of the Word of God but do not trust the Rhema of His word. The disciples believed both the Scripture and the word, which Jesus had said.
We find this very same principle cited by Moses in the Old Testament.
“…If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the Lord who heals you” (Exodus 15:26).
Note, the children of Israel were to obey the voice of the Lord as well as heed his commandments.
Joseph Smith knew and understood both.
VII. Mission Conscious Theology
Joseph Smith once said, “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.”
Clark Pinnock remarks, “Missions is the mother of Christian theology. Christianity began as a missionary movement that first swept through and then swept away the Roman Empire” (Tracking the Maze, p.5).
So did Mormonism. That is, Mormonism was, and is, a missionary movement. D. Michael Quinn points out, “As a social phenomenon, Mormonism has also altered the landscape of America, becoming the first of second largest religious denomination in nine western states and influencing politics and culture throughout the west. The LDS church doubles its population every ten-twelve years” (The Mormon Hierarchy, Introduction).
Within just a few short years during the life of Joseph Smith, the church grew from six members to 250,000. The city of Nauvoo is but one example of the phenomenal growth of early Mormonism.
Joseph Smith and his followers settled Nauvoo, “city of beautiful,” situated on the horseshoe bend of the Mississippi in Illinois, in 1839. Within three years Nauvoo was one of the largest cities in Illinois and the tenth largest in the United States. Immigrants arrived almost daily, primarily from England. My point?
Evangelicalism as a whole I believe can learn from the Mormons. We’re too smug in our theology. Too content with guarding our conservativism; thus, we’ve forgotten (or at least need to be reminded) that the leading theme of the New Testament is the harvest of world missions.
Summary
There we have it: seven challenges from Joseph Smith’s theology.
1) Paralleling the Times and Present Movements
2) Restoring the Expression of Book of Acts Christianity
3) A Modern-day Pentecostal Outpouring
4) Three Levels of Infallibility
5) The Whole Christ
6) Issues of Open Revelation, and
7) Mission Conscious Theology
It’s my prayer that as evangelical Christians, we can tear down our walls of prejudice and stereotypes regarding our LDS brothers and sisters long enough to begin to listen. Really listen. For it’s my belief as a Southern Baptist minister—Mormons have much to offer. As Richard Mouw wrote in the forward of Robert Millet’s latest book, “Indeed, if evangelicals and Mormons could learn to talk together, about both disagreements and agreements, in calm and mutually respecting tones, this could itself be a wonderful demonstration of civility in our increasingly uncivil world.”
My sentiments exactly.
Lynn
____________
* Title taken from the “Worlds of Joseph Smith Symposium,” at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. on May 6-7, 2,005,
Sometimes I think we evangelicals need a good jolt over the head to jar our thinking loose. Examining the life and times of Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, could be just the jar we need.
I’m convinced the late John Henry Evans said it best:
“…The Joseph Smith of the popular imagination is no more a reality than Santa Claus or Uncle Sam.”
I know it’s true of my life. Or was.
Reared in a small conservative Baptist church back in the hills of the Ozarks, I was taught with strong convictions that Mormons were no different from Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientists, or Armstrong followers. They all sooner or later knocked on your door. We were instructed by our parents to “…let none of them in the house. And don’t buy their materials…” All were cults. Certainly the Mormons were not
within mainstream Christianity.
I was taught that the Book of Mormon was a lie. We have the Bible and no man was to add to the scriptures lest his soul be damned. And I was taught that the rapture could occur any minute. Establishing a literal kingdom on this earth was pure nonsense. I was also taught that Joseph Smith was the founder of a cult, and we Baptists considered him to be an imposter, egoist, plagiarist, or fanatic. He certainly was not a man sent from God. And I believe my convictions were typical. Most evangelical Christians today share similar sentiments.
After twenty years of serious reflection, having studied the life and times of Joseph Smith, my sentiments have changed. I no longer believe what I was taught. Why? I began to listen. For too long, we evangelicals have been shouting at the Mormons, talking at them and not listening. Posturing, not dialoguing. It’s time we laid down our polemic weapons and stopped shooting across the aisles at one another. It’s time we come to the point where we evangelicals and Mormons genuinely listen to one another. Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary, calls it cultivating a “spirit of civility” toward each other.
Go to the cult section in most evangelical Christian bookstores and pick up at random a book on Mormonism. Browse through its pages. Books written against Mormonism are often shallow, full of circles, contradictions, inconsistencies and the kind of logic that’s like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. You can sense—our motives are not pure. Our spirits are not clean. This must change. Our hearts must become open to dialogue.
We must come to the place where we realize—differences are not necessarily division. And, happily, I see positive signs occurring. The atmosphere in both camps is changing.
I’ve come to the conclusion--our Mormon friends may be different, but I no longer unequivocally believe they worship “another Jesus.” I know Mormons who are “born again” and washed in the blood of Jesus. I also know Baptists who adhere to the correct doctrines of the church but whose lives do not bear the fruit of the redeemed. Which highlights the saying, “you can be as straight as a gun barrel and just as empty.” It also says—God can take a crooked stick and draw a straight line.
It comes to this--we cannot pigeonhole the human heart.
I’m trying to say—I know “born again” Mormons and lost Baptists. I’m also saying—it’s time we evangelicals opened our hearts to the possibility of new and fresh theological propositions. Examining the life and ministry of Joseph Smith with no pre-drawn conclusions, ironically, may bring about revival—a revival of forgiveness and reconciliation.
For starters, perhaps Joseph Smith was not who we think he was.
I have listed what I believe to be seven theological challenges that are presented to us evangelicals as demonstrated in the life and times of this man, Joseph Smith.
1) Paralleling the Times and Present Movements
2) Restoring the Expression of Book of Acts Christianity
3) A Modern-day Pentecostal Outpouring
4) Three Levels of Infallibility
5) The Whole Christ
6) Issues of Open Revelation, and
7) Mission Conscious Theology
By the way, it is not my intent to go into depth, but to simply present an overview, a summary, of each. I would rather raise issues for us to ponder and pray over than debate them. The tone of this essay is not apologetic, but admittedly testimonial. My purpose is to allow Joseph Smith’s life and ministry to challenge us—both theologically and as believers interested in building bridges.
I. Paralleling the Times and Present Movements
I’ve always said, if Joseph Smith were alive today, I believe he would hang out with such men as Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, C. Peter Wagner, Bill Hamon, and Francis Frangipane. Men of God who are on the cutting edge of what God is doing in the earth today. I’ve also said, revelations that were revealed to Joseph back then are now coming forth and being confirmed by men and women of God.
For instance, for the past thirty-five years the Body of Christ worldwide has witnessed two moves of the Spirit: 1) charismatic renewal, and 2) prophetic movement. Out of the charismatic renewal—which primarily renewed the Feast of Pentecost—came bursting forth the prophetic movement—which is presently renewing the Feast of Tabernacles within the saints.
The charismatic renewal began sweeping across America in the mid-sixties, and picked up steam in the seventies. The prophetic movement began its surge in the mid-eighties, and is maturing in our day. There were those within the charismatic renewal who “went on to know the Lord” even in a more profound way—men like Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, and C. Peter Wagner. There are many more godly men and women I could list. I simply pick these three at random. However, most within the charismatic renewal stopped at the Feast of Pentecost years ago and have been camped out at a first fruits anointing ever since.
It would do us well to list some features of the present-day prophetic movement. Common to the movement are the following characteristics:
1) It tends to be non-denominational.
2) It fellowships around the Manifested Presence, rather than
creed.
3) It is worldwide.
4) It recognizes the prophetic; particularly the offices of prophet and apostle.
5) It has an understanding of the meaning "restoration" and believes in restoration, not reformation. The book of Joel is one of its favorite books. So is the Song of Solomon, which emphasizes a passion and intimacy with the Savior.
6) It embraces kingdom theology; i.e., return to Eden and a return to paradisiacal glory.
7) It embraces remnant theology; that is, believes in Sons of God that will overcome this world's present-day government.
8) It holds up the Elijah ministry, believing in a return of Elijah and his prophetic ministry before the return of the Lord.
Many of the above listings are and were revelations taught and believed by both Rick Joyner and Joseph Smith. The two men have a lot in common. Both men are Feast of Tabernacle Christians. Both were and are ahead of their times. Both are highly misunderstood. And both are extremely prophetic.
If you will ponder the above listings, you will notice restoration theology present.
II. Restoring the Expression of Book of Acts Christianity
We must not forget--Christianity in the plan of Joseph Smith goes deeper than churchgoing and an allegiance to a doctrinal agenda. Christianity to Joseph was not to be a church, a religion, or a sect, but a complete change of society. Or more precisely, a society within a society. That's a different mindset. In other words, the social, the economic, even the political, were undeniably commingled with the spiritual. All of life for Joseph Smith and the early restoration saints was under one umbrella--the Lordship of Christ.
Example: the saints got run out of Kirtland, Ohio, not because they built a temple, but because they built a bank. Not because they created secret ordinances behind closed doors, but because they created an entire new society right in their own backyard. It was a new bank, a new society (a new “ecclesia” if you please) that got next to their non-Mormon neighbors.
It bears emphasis--everywhere Joseph Smith went he built a city, not a church.
That says much. Paul, the apostle, wrote to the church at Ephesus, the church at Corinth, the church at Rome, the church at Philippi, the church at Thessalonica. I’m saying—the emphasis is as much on the city as it is on the church presiding in the city. I’m also saying—since the reformation, protestant Christianity has been out of balance. As evangelicals, our allegiance has leaned far too heavily in the direction of doctrine rather than community.
Authentic Christianity, however, is an expression of both doctrine and community. Not one without the other. We evangelicals have lost the balance. While it’s true--community without Christian doctrine quickly turns into a commune—that idealistic notion of the hippies during the ‘60s. It’s also true--doctrine without community quickly turns to denominational sectarianism, that sin so common today among us American Christians. Nevertheless, one extreme does not validate the other. Both are to be avoided. Both expressions (communes and sects) are caricatures of Book of Acts Christianity. I submit, Joseph Smith restored, or attempted to restore, Book of Acts Christianity—that balance between doctrine and community.
The late Francis Schaeffer, Presbyterian minister, also saw the imbalance of present-day Christianity among most American churches and founded L’Abri Fellowship in Switzerland, a place of “shelter” for believers to come live in an atmosphere of community while studying the basic tenants of Christian doctrine.
Joseph Smith, I believe, saw that same need, and imbalance, during his day as he built his cities of faith.
III. A Modern-day Pentecostal Outpouring
I tell my Pentecostal/Charismatic friends, the great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our day did not begin in 1900 out west in California on Azusa Street. It began in the Midwest in a little town called Kirtland, Ohio, sixty-four years earlier! The year was 1836. Most of my evangelical friends have never heard the story of the great outpouring that accompanied the early Saints. It was a Pentecost, indeed, and a time of rejoicing. I would say—a time unparalleled in our day. So few of today’s Christians know about it.
Zebedee Coltrin, eyewitness, wrote,
“…I have seen the power of God as it was on the day of Pentecost…I saw the Lord…The angels of God rested upon the [Kirtland] Temple and we heard their voices singing heavenly music…”
Hear Lorenzo Snow, another eyewitness:
“…There [in the temple] we had the gift of prophecy—the gift of tongues—the interpretation of tongues—visions and marvelous dreams were related—the singing of heavenly choirs was heard, and wonderful manifestations of the healing power, through the administrations of the Elders, were witnessed. The sick were healed—the deaf made to hear—the blind to see and the lame to walk, in very many instances. It was plainly manifest that a sacred and divine influence—a spiritual atmosphere pervaded that holy edifice.” --Biography of Lorenzo Snow, p.11
Daniel Tyler wrote, “…All felt that they had a foretaste of heaven…and we wondered whether the millennium had commenced…”
Over one thousand people attended these meetings. The Savior appeared in five different meetings held in the temple. Visions, including a vision of the Father and Son, were beheld at eight meetings, and the congregation saw heavenly beings or angels in nine meetings. In other sessions many Saints reported that they experienced such manifestations as the gift of tongues, the sounds of a mighty wind, a pillar of fire resting down upon the temple roof, prophesying, and the voices of angels (Joseph Smith’s Kirtland, p.170).
So great was the outpouring that the Mormon Prophet was constrained to write,
“…It was a Pentecost and an endowment indeed, long to be remembered, for the sound shall go forth from this place into all the world, and the occurrences of this day shall be handed down upon the pages of sacred history, to all generations; as the day of Pentecost, so shall this day be numbered and celebrated as a year of jubilee, and time of rejoicing to the Saints of the Most High God.” --History of the Church, 2:432-33
Joseph, under the inspiration of his pen, writes “…the occurrences of this day shall be handed down upon the pages of sacred history…” That hasn’t happened yet. That prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. I believe, because of the lack of knowledge among today’s Christians regarding these widespread occurrences, events of 1836 have yet to reach their full impact. There will come a day when the Body of Christ will know.
Eyewitness John A. Boynton’s prophecy shall be fulfilled. “…Within that house God will pour out his spirit in great majesty and glory and encircle his people with fire more gloriously and marvelously than at Pentecost because the work to be performed in the last days is greater than was in that day.” --May 6, 1834, Kirtland, Ohio
Hear the story of a little girl.
Prescindia Huntington describes her experience that week.
“…A little girl came to my door and in wonder called me out, exclaiming, ‘The meeting is on top of the meeting house!’ I went to the door, and there I saw on the temple angels clothed in white covering the roof from end to end. They seemed to be walking to and fro; they appeared and disappeared. The third time they appeared and disappeared before I realized that they were not mortal men. Each time in a moment they vanished, and their reappearance was the same. This was in broad daylight, in the afternoon. A number of the children in Kirtland saw the same…”--Women of Mormonism, p.p.207-8
One of the most powerful gatherings took place on January 28th, 1836. Joseph wrote in his journal, “…Elder Roger Orton saw a mighty angel riding upon a horse of fire…President William Smith, one of the Twelve, say the heavens opened, and the Lord’s host protecting the Lord’s anointed…I retired to my home, filled with the Spirit, and my soul cried hosanna to God and the Lamb, through the silent watches of the night; and while my eyes were closed in sleep, the visions of the Lord were sweet unto me, and His glory was round about me.” --History of the Church, p.p.2:386-87
The glory of the Lord so settled on the Saints during one particular worship service that unbelievers in Kirtland called the local fire department. The church building was on fire—so they thought. Unbelievers, and believers alike, stood nearby and watched the flames not consume the rooftop.
The spiritual gifts truly operated in the early Saints’ lives—in their worship services and in their personal lives.
IV. Three Levels of Infallibility
Early Mormonism provided a system of three levels of infallibility. Unlike conservative Protestantism, which relies solely on one level of infallibility (the Bible), the early saints relied upon the written scriptures, their creeds and traditions of the elders (Doctrine & Covenants), and a living magisterium (the Word of the Lord spoken through the Prophet and twelve apostles).
In this respect, Mormonism (both early and present) parallels the Catholic faith. Both are religions of authority. Both look to a system of three levels of infallibility, which is so consistently worked out.
Clark Pinnock, apologist, points out that this might be a good thing, a strength rather than a weakness.
“…I marvel at the fact,” says Pinnock, “that there are not larger numbers of Protestant conservatives converting to Rome. After all, the logic is so compelling. If one assumes, as all conservatives do (Protestant or Catholic), that a definitive cognitive revelation has been given to us in Jesus Christ, then it becomes necessary just in order to ensure its continuing efficacy over time (1) to have it fixed and deposited in infallible Scripture to guarantee access; (2) to see that it is correctly interpreted in binding confessions to ward off hermeneutical pluralism; and (3) to have it preserved in the bosom of an infallible institution that could deal with any new challenges that are bound to arise.”
--Tracking the Maze, p.35
The thinking is logically impeccable, says Pinnock. “Though an evangelical Protestant myself, I cannot deny the sheer brilliance of the Roman system of authority (at least in theory) for securing orthodox theology from error and human subjectivity” (p.35).
The same can be said of Mormonism. The systematic development of ecclesiastical and theocratic powers of Mormonism, primarily during the lifetime of its founder Joseph Smith (1805-44), provided for its followers a sense of safety, security, and spirituality virtually unparalleled in modern religious history.
V. Restoring the Whole Christ
Joseph Smith claimed he was called to restore primitive Christianity. And Primitive Christianity, I believe, is a combination of: good soteriology, pneumonology, eschatology, and cosmology. Soteriology is the study of that grand biblical theme, salvation. Pneumonology is the study of the Spirit of God. Eschatology is the study of Last Things. And Cosmology, the study of the universe. Preaching the Whole Christ, I believe, embraces all of the above disciplines.
The gospel according to Joseph Smith embraced and preached all of the above. Today’s Christianity, on the other hand, is so fragmented, embracing parts of the above. Evangelicals, for example, are excellent stewards of soteriology, that scriptural theme of salvation. Pentecostals and Charismatic churches have pneumonology down. Certain prophetic groups are good stewards of eschatology. And a few other groups include cosmology. But no one group embraces and preaches all of the above quite like the Latter-day Saints.
As said, Joseph Smith’s theology embraces soteriology, pneumonology, eschatology, and cosmology.
Take, for example, cosmology. Protestantism does not, in my opinion, go far enough when it concerns the cosmos. In fact, protestant theology says very little about the nature and relationship of the cosmos in regards to our personal faith.
Cosmology, on the other hand, is central to Mormonism! The restored gospel of Jesus Christ claims to answer rather decisively what some would call those “dreadful questions”; i.e., Where did we come from? Who am I? And where am I going? As evangelicals, I think we must frequently remind ourselves…Christianity is a cosmic religion! Jesus is Lord of three worlds: heaven, earth, and hell. Jesus Christ holds the atoms together. He holds gravity together. And he holds my heart together. Our faith is cosmic. Protestantism, to my lack of satisfaction, doesn’t emphasize enough the Cosmic Christ, as do the Mormons.
Christianity also includes a study of the doctrine of Last Things—eschatology.
The millenarian world of early Mormonism is alive and well—even in our day. Its Eschatology of Last Things—of how this world will wind down in the endtime—is perhaps a much better story than we Protestants have to tell. We believe the God of the Bible is primarily a God of removal. Mormons believe the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a God of restoration. Our eschatology unfortunately reeks of the Helicopter Escape mentality. We’re leaving this world behind just in the nick of time when all hell will break loose.
Perhaps Mormons do possess a much better understanding of the millennial transformation of the earth. The early saints clearly delighted in the prospects of literally inheriting the earth. Even eternity was to be enjoyed on earth, since spatially the Celestial Kingdom turned out to be a terrestrial kingdom after all. What made all this worth seeking, of course, was the totality of the future transformation of life on earth. Far from its present fallenness, the earth would be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory, including the herbivorization of carnivores, the commingling of mortals and immortals, and a topography that would have tantalized any pre-transportation revolution traveler. It really is a better story to tell.
Early Saints were called Israelites, Latter-day Israelites. Early saints were a millenarian group, who understood that the millennium had much more to do than WHEN the Lord might come. The view of salvation with the early saints was millenarian in that (a) it was collective, to be enjoyed by the faithful as a group, (b) it was terrestrial, to be realized here on earth, (c) it was total, to completely transform life on earth, (d) it was imminent; that is it was to come swiftly rather than gradually, and (e) it was miraculous, to be accomplished by signs and wonders.
--The Millenarian World of Early Mormonism, p. 5
Take the matter of pneumonology—the study of the Holy Spirit. The early restoration saints walked in a world of miracles and faith. That’s one of the main reasons I was attracted to the gospel according to Joseph Smith. As a “charismatic Christian,” I thought—my goodness, this man embraced it all! He’s got what the Evangelicals have (soteriology). He’s got what the classical Pentecostals and charismatics have (pneumonology). He’s got what the current prophetic movement has (eschatology) and he’s even got what the Jehovah Witnesses have (cosmology)—the study of the universe that answers those dreadful questions.
As an evangelical Christian, it’s my observation--no one group today embraces Primitive Christianity quite like Joseph Smith’s theology embraced Primitive Christianity.
VI. Issues of Open Revelation
Let me say right up front—I believe we evangelicals blur the distinction of open revelation versus inspiration. I believe these two issues are as slippery as trying to catch squid barehanded in an ocean. It’s almost impossible to grab hold of the meaning of each entirely. For instance, all of us know that the Bible is inspired but we’re not quite sure how. Nothing is that clear when we descend into the deep.
Nevertheless, we’ll give it a shot. That is, we’ll try to deal briefly with the subject. To quote Clark Pinnock, Christianity claims to be a revealed religion. And as evangelicals, Pinnock encourages us to stay away from neo-Protestantism’s view of revelation. “Revelation bereft of content is the bane of contemporary theology,” he says (Biblical Revelation, p.23). At the core of the biblical conception is revelation as divine activity in history. “The word-deed complex in divine revelation must not be shattered. God did not act without speaking, nor speak without acting” (p.35).
We’re, however, not discussing revelation as epistemology. I’m more interested in what Jack Deere, formerly an associate professor of Old Testament at Dallas Theological seminary, has to say about “two-way prayer” (Surprised By the Power of the Spirit). For, you see, as a Baptist, I too was always taught that prayer was “one way.” That is, God spoke to me when I read his word and I spoke to Him when I prayed. But I never believed that God was as interested and involved in my day-to-day life as he had been in the lives of the New Testament believers. I never expected God to actually “speak back” when I prayed.
Example: it used to bother me to no end when I would hear one of my Pentecostal friends say, “The Lord just now spoke to me.” I always wanted to say, “He did!” half envious but afraid to let go of my cessationist theology. I must admit, though. I was a bit jealous that the Lord would pay that much attention to my friend. The Lord never spoke to me like that. Ironically, I understand now. Of course He didn’t. I never believed that He would!
The Lord spoke often to the early saints and to Joseph Smith. Open revelations were common in their meetings, as well as in their personal lives. The heavens seemed to have opened. Just a couple of examples. Prescindia Huntington writes in her autobiography (1836-1839):
“…At another time a cousin of ours came to visit us at Kirtland. She wanted to go to one of the saints’ fast meetings, to hear someone sing or speak in tongues, but she said she expected to have a hearty laugh. Accordingly we went with our cousin to the meeting, during which a Brother McCarter rose and sang a song of Zion in tongues; I arose and sang simultaneously with him the same tune and words, beginning and ending each verse in perfect unison, without varying a word. It was just as though we had sung it together a thousand times. After we came out of the meeting, our cousin observed, ‘Instead of laughing, I never felt so solemn in my life.’” (page 209).
And…
In the spring of 1832, Joseph went to Missouri. After several weeks of ministering he began his journey back to Kirtland, Ohio, with some of his elders. While on route by stagecoach, the horses were spooked and ran off. Brother Whitney, one of those traveling with Joseph, attempted to catch the runaway horses by jumping out of the coach. He broke his leg and foot in several places. Sidney Rigdon went on to Kirtland while Joseph remained behind, attending to his friend. They stayed in Greenville for four weeks. Joseph was getting anxious to get back to Kirtland. One morning in early June he remarked to Newel Knight:
“…I went into his room,” said Joseph, “after a walk in the grove, and told him if we would agree to start for home in the morning, we would take a wagon to the river, about four miles, and there would be a ferry boat waiting which would take us directly to the landing, where we would find a boat waiting, and we would be going up the river before ten o’clock, and have a prosperous journey home.”
Brother Whitney, with some reluctance, consented to Joseph’s instructions. The next morning they took leave and found everything as Joseph had told them. They encountered the wagon, the ferry boat, the hack and the boat—and they had a prosperous journey.
On another occasion, David Whitmore felt led of the Lord to travel from his home in Fayette, N.Y. to Harmony, P.A. He felt impressed to invite Joseph and his friend Oliver Cowdery, to his home. Lucy Smith, Joseph’s mother, records the event:
“…David immediately set out for Pennsylvania, and arrived there in two days, without injuring his horses in the least, though the distance was one hundred and thirty-five miles,” says Joseph’s mother. When he arrived, he was under the necessity of introducing himself to Joseph, as this was the first time that they had ever met.
Before Mr. Whitmore had arrived in town, Joseph and Oliver were there to greet him. They were waiting some distance from town. Joseph had foretold his trip to his friend, Oliver. David Whitmore later told of their meeting to Orson Pratt.
“…When I arrived,” says David, “at Harmony, Joseph and Oliver were coming toward me, and met me some distance from the house. Oliver told me that Joseph had informed him…when I started from home, where I had stopped the first night, how I read the sign at the tavern, where I stopped the next night, and that I would be there that day before dinner, and this was why they had come out to meet me; all of which was exactly as Joseph had told Oliver, at which I was greatly astonished,” said Mr. Whitmore.
Inspiration, open revelations, spiritual gifts: all operated in the lives of the early saints, including Joseph Smith. They heard the voice of God, as well as lived their lives by obedience to God’s commandments. John in his gospel wrote an interesting comment:
“…Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said” [italics mine] (Jn.2:22).
Too often, I believe we as evangelicals believe the Logos of the Word of God but do not trust the Rhema of His word. The disciples believed both the Scripture and the word, which Jesus had said.
We find this very same principle cited by Moses in the Old Testament.
“…If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the Lord who heals you” (Exodus 15:26).
Note, the children of Israel were to obey the voice of the Lord as well as heed his commandments.
Joseph Smith knew and understood both.
VII. Mission Conscious Theology
Joseph Smith once said, “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.”
Clark Pinnock remarks, “Missions is the mother of Christian theology. Christianity began as a missionary movement that first swept through and then swept away the Roman Empire” (Tracking the Maze, p.5).
So did Mormonism. That is, Mormonism was, and is, a missionary movement. D. Michael Quinn points out, “As a social phenomenon, Mormonism has also altered the landscape of America, becoming the first of second largest religious denomination in nine western states and influencing politics and culture throughout the west. The LDS church doubles its population every ten-twelve years” (The Mormon Hierarchy, Introduction).
Within just a few short years during the life of Joseph Smith, the church grew from six members to 250,000. The city of Nauvoo is but one example of the phenomenal growth of early Mormonism.
Joseph Smith and his followers settled Nauvoo, “city of beautiful,” situated on the horseshoe bend of the Mississippi in Illinois, in 1839. Within three years Nauvoo was one of the largest cities in Illinois and the tenth largest in the United States. Immigrants arrived almost daily, primarily from England. My point?
Evangelicalism as a whole I believe can learn from the Mormons. We’re too smug in our theology. Too content with guarding our conservativism; thus, we’ve forgotten (or at least need to be reminded) that the leading theme of the New Testament is the harvest of world missions.
Summary
There we have it: seven challenges from Joseph Smith’s theology.
1) Paralleling the Times and Present Movements
2) Restoring the Expression of Book of Acts Christianity
3) A Modern-day Pentecostal Outpouring
4) Three Levels of Infallibility
5) The Whole Christ
6) Issues of Open Revelation, and
7) Mission Conscious Theology
It’s my prayer that as evangelical Christians, we can tear down our walls of prejudice and stereotypes regarding our LDS brothers and sisters long enough to begin to listen. Really listen. For it’s my belief as a Southern Baptist minister—Mormons have much to offer. As Richard Mouw wrote in the forward of Robert Millet’s latest book, “Indeed, if evangelicals and Mormons could learn to talk together, about both disagreements and agreements, in calm and mutually respecting tones, this could itself be a wonderful demonstration of civility in our increasingly uncivil world.”
My sentiments exactly.
Lynn
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_Valorius
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Questions about questions
Quite an impressive essay for a dilettante like myself, lynnr. I appreciate the potential for education here.
Sono Hito, I am involved in multiple religions, but am not ready to present anything about them yet.
I've considered your questions. There are additional questions which come to my mind when I think about the nature and value of a particular religion, and in fact when I think about my own relation to the cosmos, to God, to people, my own divided nature. I wonder if you would consider adding these questions to your list:
What is the origin of life?
What is the purpose of life? This is a key question for Mormons.
What is the origin of evil? Given your remarks on evil ("works of man are purely those of man. And should be judged as such." and "we do not believe in any inborn sin from which you must be saved from. Though if you do cause harm, restitution is owed in some form or another."), what is it in human nature that allows a person to want to cause harm, and to succeed in causing harm? And what is it that makes a person want to make restitution? And how is restitution determined? Is evil, in your system, only physical? Do you recognize spiritual evil such as hurting the 'heart' of a person?
You wrote, "becomming very drunk is deeply frowned upon because it can lead to very foolish behavior". Why is behaving foolishly frowned upon?
What is the process for overcoming evil (in oneself), for removing even the possibility of intentionally causing harm to others? Granted, that external restitution may be made to offset a physical harm, what can one do to eliminate the possibility of repeating the harm?
You write, "Asatru teaches that as with nature, the idea that there is a singilar way of life or spiritualism would stagnate and wrong humanity. Much like there are thousands of different breeds of birds, there are many ways of growing as a person. So long as that person proves to be honorable, let them live as such."
While they are many breeds of birds, they all grow the same way. A male and a female bird come together. A nest is built. Eggs are laid. Eggs are cared for. Baby birds hatch. They are nurtured by their parents. They grow feathers and strengthen their wings. They take test flights, then a maiden flight, with the parent usually in close proximity. Eventually they separate from their parents, and bein the cycle anew. They all grow, however, the same way, and they all become what they are destined to be as a species. Their external nature, their colors and songs and sizes and habits differ, but their internal nature is alike. They have all learned the same things - what to eat, how to chirp and sing, how to fly. They become birds. Humans come in different colors and sizes, speak different languages, and have different traditions. But there is some essential element that binds them all. What is the commonality? What is it of human growth that is the same, that makes us all humans instead of each individual a separate species? What is "true human nature"?
Sono Hito, I am involved in multiple religions, but am not ready to present anything about them yet.
I've considered your questions. There are additional questions which come to my mind when I think about the nature and value of a particular religion, and in fact when I think about my own relation to the cosmos, to God, to people, my own divided nature. I wonder if you would consider adding these questions to your list:
What is the origin of life?
What is the purpose of life? This is a key question for Mormons.
What is the origin of evil? Given your remarks on evil ("works of man are purely those of man. And should be judged as such." and "we do not believe in any inborn sin from which you must be saved from. Though if you do cause harm, restitution is owed in some form or another."), what is it in human nature that allows a person to want to cause harm, and to succeed in causing harm? And what is it that makes a person want to make restitution? And how is restitution determined? Is evil, in your system, only physical? Do you recognize spiritual evil such as hurting the 'heart' of a person?
You wrote, "becomming very drunk is deeply frowned upon because it can lead to very foolish behavior". Why is behaving foolishly frowned upon?
What is the process for overcoming evil (in oneself), for removing even the possibility of intentionally causing harm to others? Granted, that external restitution may be made to offset a physical harm, what can one do to eliminate the possibility of repeating the harm?
You write, "Asatru teaches that as with nature, the idea that there is a singilar way of life or spiritualism would stagnate and wrong humanity. Much like there are thousands of different breeds of birds, there are many ways of growing as a person. So long as that person proves to be honorable, let them live as such."
While they are many breeds of birds, they all grow the same way. A male and a female bird come together. A nest is built. Eggs are laid. Eggs are cared for. Baby birds hatch. They are nurtured by their parents. They grow feathers and strengthen their wings. They take test flights, then a maiden flight, with the parent usually in close proximity. Eventually they separate from their parents, and bein the cycle anew. They all grow, however, the same way, and they all become what they are destined to be as a species. Their external nature, their colors and songs and sizes and habits differ, but their internal nature is alike. They have all learned the same things - what to eat, how to chirp and sing, how to fly. They become birds. Humans come in different colors and sizes, speak different languages, and have different traditions. But there is some essential element that binds them all. What is the commonality? What is it of human growth that is the same, that makes us all humans instead of each individual a separate species? What is "true human nature"?
"[The Lord] doeth NOTHING save it be PLAIN unto the children of men" 2 Nephi 26:33
"Then why tell us not to seek after the 'mysteries' of the Lord? What mysteries?" - Valorius
"Then why tell us not to seek after the 'mysteries' of the Lord? What mysteries?" - Valorius