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From Wikki, re Bednar parodied in the Terrestrial Realm, i pasted a quote of Elder B's:

"Thus, the enabling and strengthening aspect of the Atonement helps us to see and to do and to become good in ways that we could never recognize or accomplish with our limited mortal capacity. I testify and witness that the enabling power of the Savior’s Atonement is real. Without that strengthening power of the Atonement, I could not stand before you this morning." Excerpt from David A. Bednar, “In the Strength of the Lord,” Ensign, Nov. 2004, 76

(Bold added)

I think this is a most interesting, & provocative statement... IS DB implying that all humanity is not only "saved" by the "Atonement", BUT, also 'enlightened, and empowered,' "...to become good in ways that we could never recognize or accomplish..."???

Is this in addition to being assisted/lead by the "light of Christ"? These each (Salvation & Light) being granted outside the confines of Mormonism??? Certainly, IMSCO, this is implied. Or, since this is addressed to Mormons, is it to be understood, "Mormons only are so benefited."???

As Elder B acknowledges his strength to "stand" comes from the "Savior's Atonement", then it must also be the same power that enables all to "stand"!!

As the atonement is free to all, it cannot but be equal in every respect to all! This is most broadening of "God's" grace and takes it beyond the generally understood bounds of religiosity, as i see it! Other views? Warm regards, Roger

Roger Morrison wrote: From Wikki, re Bednar parodied in the Terrestrial Realm, I pasted a quote of Elder B's:

"Thus, the enabling and strengthening aspect of the Atonement helps us to see and to do and to become good in ways that we could never recognize or accomplish with our limited mortal capacity. I testify and witness that the enabling power of the Savior’s Atonement is real. Without that strengthening power of the Atonement, I could not stand before you this morning." Excerpt from David A. Bednar, “In the Strength of the Lord,” Ensign, Nov. 2004, 76

(Bold added)

I think this is a most interesting, & provocative statement... IS DB implying that all humanity is not only "saved" by the "Atonement", BUT, also 'enlightened, and empowered,' "...to become good in ways that we could never recognize or accomplish..."???

Is this in addition to being assisted/lead by the "light of Christ"? These each (Salvation & Light) being granted outside the confines of Mormonism??? Certainly, IMSCO, this is implied. Or, since this is addressed to Mormons, is it to be understood, "Mormons only are so benefited."???

As Elder B acknowledges his strength to "stand" comes from the "Savior's Atonement", then it must also be the same power that enables all to "stand"!!

As the atonement is free to all, it cannot but be equal in every respect to all! This is most broadening of "God's" grace and takes it beyond the generally understood bounds of religiosity, as I see it! Other views? Warm regards, Roger

I think he's just talking to hear his head rattle.

Hi LM, you said:

I think he's just talking to hear his head rattle.

Might well be, but... once it's said, it's in the air. How does one get the air back into a burst baloon???

His statement: "...through the atonement (claimed a Universal saving grace from eternal death, believed or not) I stand before you a more capable person..." Or words to that affect. If so, (and is a GA not to be taken at his word?) then "God", being no respector of persons, has through Jesus Universally blessed humanity with a capability not available before...

To live the "Two New Commandments" whether a "believer" or not, one only has to "feel" them to apply them! YES!! Warm regards, Roger

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi LM, you said:

I think he's just talking to hear his head rattle.

Might well be, but... once it's said, it's in the air. How does one get the air back into a burst baloon???

His statement: "...through the atonement (claimed a Universal saving grace from eternal death, believed or not) I stand before you a more capable person..." Or words to that affect. If so, (and is a GA not to be taken at his word?) then "God", being no respector of persons, has through Jesus Universally blessed humanity with a capability not available before...

To live the "Two New Commandments" whether a "believer" or not, one only has to "feel" them to apply them! YES!! Warm regards, Roger

It sounds to me like he's saying something like a GA has extra capabilities beyond what an ordinary mortal has because of the atonement and if not for that he couldn't stand in conference as an authority. That's just the feeling I got from it, but whatever he was trying to say I don't think he really thought it through that much, GAs aren't much of theologians and that's why doctrine is in such a snarl. Whatever, he said something that sounded impressive to the congregation, they bowed their heads and said amen in their hearts, and if it gets questioned later then maybe he was talking as a man or the ways of GOd are not our own or whatever, it's not a problem, we know the church is true.

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi LM, you said:

I think he's just talking to hear his head rattle.

Might well be, but... once it's said, it's in the air. How does one get the air back into a burst baloon???

His statement: "...through the atonement (claimed a Universal saving grace from eternal death, believed or not) I stand before you a more capable person..." Or words to that affect. If so, (and is a GA not to be taken at his word?) then "God", being no respector of persons, has through Jesus Universally blessed humanity with a capability not available before...

To live the "Two New Commandments" whether a "believer" or not, one only has to "feel" them to apply them! YES!! Warm regards, Roger

It sounds to me like he's saying something like a GA has extra capabilities beyond what an ordinary mortal has because of the atonement and if not for that he couldn't stand in conference as an authority. That's just the feeling I got from it, but whatever he was trying to say I don't think he really thought it through that much, GAs aren't much of theologians and that's why doctrine is in such a snarl. Whatever, he said something that sounded impressive to the congregation, they bowed their heads and said amen in their hearts, and if it gets questioned later then maybe he was talking as a man or the ways of GOd are not our own or whatever, it's not a problem, we know the church is true.

Hi LM, you said:

It sounds to me like he's saying something like a GA has extra capabilities beyond what an ordinary mortal has because of the atonement and if not for that he couldn't stand in conference as an authority.

You're probably right. I guess they have to impress the mass with their humility--couldn't go it alone. And, their superiority--THEY have call on the power.

But as i see it, they seem surprised to be able to "stand". Something most of us just take foregranted--get up and do it!
How do others do it? Exactly the same way! "Blessed" by a "God" who's no respector of anything but effort any energy...

Warm regards, Roger

Please remember that Bednar on this board is a cartoon character. Having a conversation with him, in his present state, is like talking to Bugs Bunny. There is no soul inside that lampoon, no ability to actually hold up a side of the conversation. You won't get his/her thoughts on any subject, because he has none, other than to lampoon and ridicule the real Bednar, and the LDS church.

Some folks add to the conversation and discussion on this board. Bednar, Tommy, and Packer are not going to add anything. In their present manifestation, to uncloak and show the real poster under the sockpuppet would be detrimental to their joke.

harmony wrote:Please remember that Bednar on this board is a cartoon character. Having a conversation with him, in his present state, is like talking to Bugs Bunny. There is no soul inside that lampoon, no ability to actually hold up a side of the conversation. You won't get his/her thoughts on any subject, because he has none, other than to lampoon and ridicule the real Bednar, and the LDS church.

Some folks add to the conversation and discussion on this board. Bednar, Tommy, and Packer are not going to add anything. In their present manifestation, to uncloak and show the real poster under the sockpuppet would be detrimental to their joke.

Thanks Harmony, my reason for dropping out of the original "Bednar" thread. But within those posts i picked up the opening quote posted here... Actually i am surprised to see Bugs here. Never know about "Democrat pesky wittle wabbits."

In that quote of the real Bednar there seemed, to me, to be some thoughts to be explored... Maybe not?? Warm regards, Roger

I think you're extrapolating WAY more from these simple statements than was intended or even than can be rationally derived.

I'll go for the most obvious one first. Elder Bednar says in conference that without the atonement "I could not stand before you this morning." I'm 99% sure that he is here refering to his ability to stand as an apostle and give the word of the Lord by revelation to the church. Not his general ability to stand on his feet. So no, he's not saying the atonement gives everyone the ability to stand up, but that without the atonement he would not have been able to progress spiritually to the point that he'd be able to serve as an apostle.

I don't see what the big fuss about the rest of the statement is. You said:

I think this is a most interesting, & provocative statement... IS DB implying that all humanity is not only "saved" by the "Atonement", BUT, also 'enlightened, and empowered,' "...to become good in ways that we could never recognize or accomplish..."???

How is this provocative? Its standard church doctrine, though I guess its not discussed that often. The church teaches that even Christlike characteristics like charity and faith are not things we can develop independantly but are given to us as gifts from God through the power of the atonment. In that as we accept Christ and his atonement we can lean on his strengths to make up for our failings, in both our righteousness and our weakness of character. Thus we can tap into Christ's charity and his faith like we can tap into his righteousness, through the atonement. So in these ways the atonement enables us to become more like Christ and more righteous than we ever could without it. I hope I explained that clearly enough. And yes, that has always been something that is available to all sincere Christians, not just TBMs.

Hi Z, welcome aboard! A Mission in Missouri? When? You said:

I think you're extrapolating WAY more from these simple statements than was intended or even than can be rationally derived.

I'll go for the most obvious one first. Elder Bednar says in conference that without the atonement "I could not stand before you this morning." I'm 99% sure that he is here refering to his ability to stand as an apostle and give the word of the Lord by revelation to the church. Not his general ability to stand on his feet. So no, he's not saying the atonement gives everyone the ability to stand up, but that without the atonement he would not have been able to progress spiritually to the point that he'd be able to serve as an apostle.

Maybe more than intended... But, "...rationally derived."? Really? I'm irrational? Could be my "rationality" is beyond your "rationality"? :-) Happens al the time between folks with varying degrees of vision... Certainly i'm "extrapolating". I'm inferring that what DB states as limited to the 'Lord's-annointed' is self aggrandizement and expresses exclusivity with "God" and his superiority in the ranks. IMSCO, that is. He is simply a man with responsibilities, one amongst millions. IF/when he excels it is by the same efforts and energy through which anyone excels.

Come on Z, i'm very near smart enough to know that "...stand before you..." meant, 'present myself before you'... But thanks for the "heads-up" ;-)

I respectfully suggest DB was/is unaware that the atonement IS Universal--like oxygen--AND does, "...give(s) everyone the ability to stand/present-themselves..." in every & all circumstances, in the world where "God" is no respector of persons. We might not agree on that, but... Of course one has to prepare themselves; we all merrit the consequence of our actions... You say further:

How is this provocative? Its standard church doctrine, though I guess its not discussed that often. The church teaches that even Christlike characteristics like charity and faith are not things we can develop independantly but are given to us as gifts from God through the power of the atonment. In that as we accept Christ and his atonement we can lean on his strengths to make up for our failings, in both our righteousness and our weakness of character. Thus we can tap into Christ's charity and his faith like we can tap into his righteousness, through the atonement. So in these ways the atonement enables us to become more like Christ and more righteous than we ever could without it. I hope I explained that clearly enough. And yes, that has always been something that is available to all sincere Christians, not just TBMs.

"This" calls forth/provokes thought, as we are now exchanging. IF the church teaches that we cannot develop "charity...independently" then they are misrepresenting the message/teachings of Jesus. Yes, you explained that "clealy enough" to astound me! Where could such thinking be spawned? And, that you added prejudice & discrimination to your imaginings, "...available to all sincere "Christians", is the ultimate insult.

ALL things are available to ALL people! Not just to "Christians". Maybe ya might want to rethink your stand/presenting?

Thanks for being provoked :-)... Warm regards, Roger