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I read an article in Ohio History about the church in Kirtland. I'm starting to read more independent articles now and really liked this one. One thing that I have thought about in the last few weeks is that it appears that sometimes the Church brings out the persecution card when things don't go their way: Joseph getting angry when denied a bank charter and saying it's because they don't like the church. It's kind of a faith promoting rumor that each time Joseph left a state he was an innocent man being chased by evil people. I just recently learned that Joseph left Ohio beause he was going to be arrested. I never heard that in sunday school. I read information on other boards about the Kirtland Bank failure was do to Joseph getting lousy non-LDS legal advice. any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated. I listed this link on my post the "Lost Manuscript" but I will relist it here too.

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thestyleguy wrote:I read an article in Ohio History about the church in Kirtland. I'm starting to read more independent articles now and really liked this one. One thing that I have thought about in the last few weeks is that it appears that sometimes the Church brings out the persecution card when things don't go their way: Joseph getting angry when denied a bank charter and saying it's because they don't like the church. It's kind of a faith promoting rumor that each time Joseph left a state he was an innocent man being chased by evil people. I just recently learned that Joseph left Ohio beause he was going to be arrested. I never heard that in sunday school. I read information on other boards about the Kirtland Bank failure was do to Joseph getting lousy non-LDS legal advice. any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated. I listed this link on my post the "Lost Manuscript" but I will relist it here too.

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In a lot of ways--and if I understand you correctly--I agree with you. And, I believe, the persecution card is often used today as well. I even do not appreciate the word "martyrdom" so-often used in the "death" or "killing" of Joseph Smith. We are taught to believe, much of the time, that the LDS church has suffered great injustices in virtue of just being "God's people." On closer examination of church history, I have seen that such things as the murder of Joseph Smith, the expelling of the Latter-day Saints from Missouri, etc. were not totally unwarrented by quite understandable circumstances--although killing and denying rights of any group (Mormon or non-Mormon) is still wrong. There is a quote, I don't even remember from where, that is from a non-Mormon citizen of early Idaho who summed up the anti-Mormon feelings on polygamy. He said that it really had nothing to do with somebody living that kind of lifestyle, but that the anti-Mormon feelings were based on feelings of being threatened by a large influx of block voters into largely unsettled counties of the frontier. Perhaps someone here knows what I am talking about and could clarify my statement with a documented citation.

On the subject of "persecution card," I have noticed a problem with what I've heard called a "persecution complex" in which people get rather defensive or angry when they feel they might be getting discriminated against or unduly criticized. For example, on the MA&D board, I've noticed many instances in which a comment of mine was taken out of context--as if I were starting an argument from an "anti-Mormon" standpoint--and have been met with rather venomous counter-attacks. In reality, I am a believing Mormon, but I wish to only share thoughtful discussion and instances of critical thinking for the sake of intellectual growth. I have also noticed this among my homosexual friends with the subject of gay rights. That being said, I actually can see--from a psychological standpoint--how this behavior happens. I appreciate the Celestial Forum because offense is rarely taken, and it is rarely intended.

This is an interesting thread, but impossible to read.

Could you possibly edit your OP and fix the link? The sticky on how to do that is at the top of the board, I believe.

Thanks.

I agree with you, the church will either not say, or underplays, something in church history, that is stated in sources like the History of the Church, or other good church sources.
You are also right about how the "persecution card," is being used too often especially when it was the church member’s fault that the persecution was started.

haleray wrote:I agree with you, the church will either not say, or underplays, something in church history, that is stated in sources like the History of the Church, or other good church sources.
You are also right about how the "persecution card," is being used too often especially when it was the church member’s fault that the persecution was started.

Any suggestions on how to correct this? How to present a more accurate account of what happened? We revere our pioneers so much, it seems that they never did anything to deserve the persecution they suffered, yet a closer reading of a nonbiased history would not allow those incorrect conclusions to stand. So how to correct that?

harmony wrote:

haleray wrote:I agree with you, the church will either not say, or underplays, something in church history, that is stated in sources like the History of the Church, or other good church sources.
You are also right about how the "persecution card," is being used too often especially when it was the church member’s fault that the persecution was started.

Any suggestions on how to correct this? How to present a more accurate account of what happened? We revere our pioneers so much, it seems that they never did anything to deserve the persecution they suffered, yet a closer reading of a nonbiased history would not allow those incorrect conclusions to stand. So how to correct that?

No way out.

Apostle Boyd K. Packer, prophet, seer and revelator said - not wrote:...there is no such thing as an accurate or objective history of the Church which ignores the Spirit...

...Teaching some things that are true, prematurely or at the wrong time, can invite sorrow and heartbreak instead of the joy intended to accompany learning ...The scriptures teach emphatically that we must give milk before meat. The Lord made it very clear that some things are to be taught selectively and some things are to be given only to those who are worthy...

...In the Church we are not neutral. We are one-sided. There is a war going on, and we are engaged in it. It is a war between good and evil, and we are belligerents defending the good. We are therefore obliged to give preference to and protect all that is represented in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and we have made covenants to do it...

"Do not spread disease germs!" (Brigham Young University Studies, Summer 1981, pp. 259, 262-271)

The thinking is over.

haleray wrote:You are also right about how the "persecution card," is being used too often especially when it was the church member’s fault that the persecution was started.

If a group does something contrary to what the local society deems as acceptable, it is not called persecution. Its called keeping the peace. Only the Mormons called it persecution for being ran out of a town that did not want wive stealing, dead indian worshipping crackpots to ruin their way of life.

harmony wrote:

haleray wrote:I agree with you, the church will either not say, or underplays, something in church history, that is stated in sources like the History of the Church, or other good church sources.
You are also right about how the "persecution card," is being used too often especially when it was the church member’s fault that the persecution was started.

Any suggestions on how to correct this? How to present a more accurate account of what happened? We revere our pioneers so much, it seems that they never did anything to deserve the persecution they suffered, yet a closer reading of a nonbiased history would not allow those incorrect conclusions to stand. So how to correct that?

Accept that the revelations meant what they said and the Saints were driven from place to place as punishment for their own sins and not for the mob's transgressions.

Then like Brigham Young be grateful for those who persecute us as a learning experience. Accept that some persecution will happen and grow from it until the day the Savior puts all enemies under his feet and hope that by that day you're not one of them.

The Nehor wrote:Accept that the revelations meant what they said and the Saints were driven from place to place as punishment for their own sins and not for the mob's transgressions.

What exactly were the Saints' sins that caused them to be driven from place to place?

And are we to suppose that the Saints haven't committed those sins for the past 150 years?

The Nehor wrote:

harmony wrote:

haleray wrote:I agree with you, the church will either not say, or underplays, something in church history, that is stated in sources like the History of the Church, or other good church sources.
You are also right about how the "persecution card," is being used too often especially when it was the church member’s fault that the persecution was started.

Any suggestions on how to correct this? How to present a more accurate account of what happened? We revere our pioneers so much, it seems that they never did anything to deserve the persecution they suffered, yet a closer reading of a nonbiased history would not allow those incorrect conclusions to stand. So how to correct that?

Accept that the revelations meant what they said and the Saints were driven from place to place as punishment for their own sins and not for the mob's transgressions.

Then like Brigham Young be grateful for those who persecute us as a learning experience. Accept that some persecution will happen and grow from it until the day the Savior puts all enemies under his feet and hope that by that day you're not one of them.

What were Joseph's sins that caused him to be driven from place to place?