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For those that don’t know by now I’m a disaffected member soon to resign. However, I was willing to watch General Conference with my TBM wife today.

David Bednar (one of the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ called as a Special Witness in this Last Dispensation of the Fullness of Times) spoke in part about a topic we’ve discussed here (Miracle of Forgiveness thread etc.). He quoted some of the more crucial scriptures from the Book of Mormon on the topic as well as the Bible. Fine. So far as the mechanics go, I think it generated understanding for those desiring further knowledge on the subject. So far as laying out the Mormon doctrine, he did it better than any approved manual I’ve ever read (other than reading the actual Book of Mormon/New Testament). It was a lesson I’ve given numerous times after throwing out the manual

At the end he bore the standard “special witness”, “I know bla bla bla..”.

But there was still something missing in the most subtle way:

What he did not specifically testify of was this miracle actually occurring in his own life.

In fact, I cannot recollect a General Authority ever testifying/relating their own personal rebirth (Miracle of Forgiveness, change of heart) that parallels any of the accounts found in Enos, Mosiah or Alma. I honestly think they believe they received the entitlement at baptism. And this is not that.

How can they know the One whom they profess to testify of if they have not witnessed the greatest miracle that bonds Christ to them as He did with Enos, the Almas and Limhi? These characters set the precedence (as well as a few in the New Testament), so where are the real life parallels in the GA’s spiritual journey? Where are their modern personal experiences of the biblical account?

Why/How would someone seemingly so spiritually connected with God not request/receive such an experience from Him?

Comments?

Inconceivable wrote:Why/How would someone seemingly so spiritually connected with God not request/receive such an experience from Him?

Comments?

There is too much pressure to appear perfect to allow these folks to share their personal repentance stories. Just like the personal sins of Joseph Smith, which were surely plentiful, are never mentioned, so also must the successors to Smith and his apostles keep their past dirty laundry mum.

I missed Elder Bednars main remarks. I actually dozed off during it. I will have to read it.

However, just because they do not refer to their own born of God experience does not mean it did not happen. On the other hand, yes it would be wonderful to hear them relate it like Paul or Alma the younger. It would make them more real to us.

One of the reasons I really like Howard W. Hunter because when Ir ead his bio I found out that he was really a pretty ordinary guy. Born in Idaho, dad was not a member, was not all that fascinating of a youth, lover music and worked on a cruise ship on a band for a year or so, I do not recall for sure but I do not think he went on a mission though I may be wrong on that one, he did baptize his dad later in life, moved to California, was a succesful attorney and felt it was OK to make some money and enjoy some of the material things in life. Yea he had leadership in the Church in California, but he just did not seem like a pure blood GA so to speak.

Trevor wrote:There is too much pressure to appear perfect to allow these folks to share their personal repentance stories. Just like the personal sins of Joseph Smith, which were surely plentiful, are never mentioned, so also must the successors to Smith and his apostles keep their past dirty laundry mum.

I suppose that these humans might consider themselves forgiven because of their "worthiness" to be chosen for such high positions in their God's church. Maybe since they haven't confessed to sins next to murder they have little need for the same type of repentence like the great unwashed need. I got that impression of Kimball in his book (Miracle of Forgiveness). I recall the LDS made movie, "The Prodigal Son" (with C. Thomas Howell) that the "good" son said in envy about his prodigal brother's acceptence, "but I'm the good guy" - in other words he incorrectly assumed he was not subject to the same scrutiny his brother experienced from God and others.

Jason Bourne wrote:However, just because they do not refer to their own born of God experience does not mean it did not happen. On the other hand, yes it would be wonderful to hear them relate it like Paul or Alma the younger. It would make them more real to us.

That crossed my mind. I have thought that maybe they consider it one of those "unspeakable" or "forbidden to utter" experiences.
Here's my observation though, those that have experienced this miraculous change of heart consider that event The Good News - not just that they know about it but that it actually happened to them. Their witness to others is not complete without relating this event. Born again Christians even celebrate the date.

Observation of the miracle is not witnessing the miracle in first person. If this weren't the case, what need would there be to come to earth "to experience" for ourselves?

In the Mormon faith, being "saved" is a lifelong process.

As for being "born again", there are those that have been converts to the church, but many of the General authorities are lifelong members that have never relaly needed a "born again" experience. They are simply immersed in the spirit all their lives. I know that sounds odd, but how many on this board were raised in the church, but have trouble recognizing the Spirit merely because they have been around it all their lives?

I was guilty of this myself. Growing up not knowing what I already knew. I have had a "born again" experience, recieving a powerful witness of the Spirit, I've mentioned it here before, but I would not say that I was "saved" at that moment, merely shown where the path is.

I am sure General Authorities are the same way.

I hope that helps. I'll keep an eye out for testimonies of the "turning point" for a General Authority. I think Elder Holland offered up one of those in his PBS interview.

Gazelam wrote:In the Mormon faith, being "saved" is a lifelong process.

..many of the General authorities are lifelong members that have never relaly needed a "born again" experience. They are simply immersed in the spirit all their lives.

I was guilty of this myself. Growing up not knowing what I already knew. I have had a "born again" experience, recieving a powerful witness of the Spirit, I've mentioned it here before, but I would not say that I was "saved" at that moment, merely shown where the path is.

Being "merely shown where the path is" is not forgiveness. According to the prophets, Satan is just as aware of "the path".

For the fictional characters I mentioned above (Enos, Alma etc), the Miracle of Forgiveness was an all encompassing event: Recognition and Godly sorrow for sin, repentance, witness of forgiveness, overwhelming peace, desire to do good continually - born again.

The process is the same, regardless of how dinky the sin is. All have sinned, All need to repent, all need to be forgiven. As you know, God does not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. All are not only entitled to the repentance process but it is required. To be forgiven is a miracle - a noticable magic if not taken for granted.

The act of confessing a sin to a bishop (or even a General Authority) does not obsolve one from seeking and obtaining God's forgiveness including the accompanying witness. Church leaders are not authorized to forgive for God, they are only authorized to forgive for the church.

My point is that perhaps these great spiritual leaders assume they are above this process because the fact that they are "called" by the Forgiver gives them the assumption they have been forgiven.


In my opinion, Bednar spoke and testified of this Miracle much better than Spencer W. Kimball's 368 page grasp of the subject.

But the question I ask comes down to this:

Bednar (and all the other GA's), if it works for everyone, then it must have worked for you. Please tell us about your personal and most sacred experience with it (and I will tell you mine).

(crickets chirping)

For me the realization of the worthwhileness of God existing was extremely powerful.

But the question I ask comes down to this:

Bednar (and all the other GA's), if it works for everyone, then it must have worked for you. Please tell us about your personal and most sacred experience with it (and I will tell you mine).

(crickets chirping)

Inconceivable...........I feel like shouting halleluia all the time since I read your post.

There is a profound reason why Mormons are hindered if not completely prohibited from accomplishing this marvelous experience with Christ the Lord. It centers upon spiritual incompetence in the administration of the restored gospel. Christ recieved a commandment from the Father which he first conveyed to the Nephites in 3 Nephi 18:28-33.

The precise manner in which the gospel is to be administered is not followed by the present LDS administration. The results is that the condemnation of the Father falls upon all Mormons immediately after they are baptized into the Church. Because the Church takes lightly the things that are written in the Book of Mormon and only say and don't do according to that which is written (D&C 84:50-59) they can only pollute the holy land and cannot be sanctified.

After a child has partaken of the sacrament unworthily for a couple of years they are fully condemned even though they are not responsible. The guilt lays at the feet of the leaders. However the eternal consequenses are everyones. This is no small calamity and tragedy. All LDS are unworthy to partake of the sacrament and even higher ordinances including ordination to the priesthood if they have not been baptized in the name of Christ.

Notice also that Moroni was precise about this as well telling us in Chapter 6 of his own book that they were not baptized save they brough forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it and that was a broken heart and contrite spirit and witnessed that they had truly repented of all their sins. and they were watched to see that they took the name of Christ with determination right up to being wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost before their names were taken and they were numbered. This is what Christ commanded. And contrary to LDS tradition of a lifelong pursuit this is always up front and required as the first works. You did not fully join the Church until ithe gospel was accomplished according to the pattern required.

What it means to be baptized in the name of Christ is to be baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost. This is the baptism only Christ was to administer and hence it bears only his name. We become his children. Water baptism is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. When a person comes unto Christ to take his name upon them, they seek a new creation at his hand,and to be raised by the power of the atonement of Christ to a state of righteousness. Exactly what the Lord told Alma the younger what every man and woman must do to enter the kingdom of God. (Mosiah 27:25-26)This is not a lifelong process and indeed cannot be. For how can it be a lifelong process if it is prerequisite to partaking of the sacrament which is to be administered every time the saints gather together and it must be done before you name is taken.

This manner of judgment Old Testament the line and righteousness to the plummet will eventually sweep asway the refuge of lies and teach doctrine to those that error. The very elect are decieved on this point and must mightily repent or be swept off in the good time of the Lord.

Where in the world did INCONCEIVABLE come to this wisdom. I have not found the same in all my travails amonst the Mormons.

Jason Bourne wrote:I missed Elder Bednars main remarks. I actually dozed off during it. I will have to read it.

However, just because they do not refer to their own born of God experience does not mean it did not happen. On the other hand, yes it would be wonderful to hear them relate it like Paul or Alma the younger. It would make them more real to us.

One of the reasons I really like Howard W. Hunter because when Ir ead his bio I found out that he was really a pretty ordinary guy. Born in Idaho, dad was not a member, was not all that fascinating of a youth, lover music and worked on a cruise ship on a band for a year or so, I do not recall for sure but I do not think he went on a mission though I may be wrong on that one, he did baptize his dad later in life, moved to California, was a succesful attorney and felt it was OK to make some money and enjoy some of the material things in life. Yea he had leadership in the Church in California, but he just did not seem like a pure blood GA so to speak.

I heard and read that Hunter's main goal was to get offended members to come back to church. He seemed like a real good guy. Sad he wasn't Prophet for that long. When he was called to be an apostle he should have gone to the top in one fell swoop just like Chief Justice John Roberts. Of course he may have gotten a cold shoulder , a roll of the eyes, when he walked into a room to hold a meeting with the twelve, on the other hand they may have thought "wow" this guy is special.


edit in: also, remember Paul called himself chief sinner and admitted that he did some pretty bad stuff. I wrote at MA&D that when you give nothing but adoring history to the members; when they are interviewed for the temple, they will give adoring history back.

James, thanks for your kind words. I'd like to understand everything you wrote but there are a few typos toward the end, but I think I understand what you are saying.

I've mentioned this before, but I have a friend that has been a Young Life minister for a number of years. He walks his talk. He explained to me Born Again (or saved) as he sees it. In a nutshell, he could have been quoting much from the Book of Mormon when he laid it all out. He explains the experience in first person - being born again changes your nature. You don't want to do evil. You want to walk in the light of His love. The mistakes/sins you commit following this experience (if the experience was genuine) are not part of your nature or intent anymore - you are essentially in a state of forgiveness. Being a Follower of Christ means walking with him in mortality in a state of grace (help and strength). He is His sheep, he is in Christ's embrace all the days of his life. Can you look at this type of person and say "he is not saved" if he were to die today? Probably not.

Some may say this is a great big loophole where men can justify their abhorent behavior. But those truly born again are not seeking to be an exception to the rule. Now, Alma states that we can forget this new state:

26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart,
and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

(Book of Mormon | Alma 5:26)

But he is asking those that have experienced this change. Not those that just happen to be Mormons (like Enos - pre-Bambi hunt - before he became distracted by the things his father had taught him)

It has discouraged me for a number of years now (when I was an active Mormon) that this experience is not encouraged or even placed in a state of recognition, but is replaced by mantras, worthiness interviews and a multitude of distracting do's. Concentrating so much on fullfilling the do's diminishes the effect of any spiritual witness and replaces it with false justifications in our mind.

To me, the experience is what it is all about. This is the gate. It's almost as if Bednar, SWK and their brothers are right there but won't enter because they are "the good guys" and have no need to enter that gate - the gate for the real sinners.

Maybe it's true in this instance that those that can't do, teach.