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I’ve started this thread for the express purpose of inviting people like Kevin Graham, Chris Smith, Brackite – and anyone else who is so inclined – to delineate to the best of their ability the arguments that they believe support the premise that the KEPA Mss. #2 and #3 (Metcalfe’s 1a/1b) are the simultaneously-produced transcripts of Joseph Smith’s original dictation of the first chapter and a half of the Book of Abraham.

I want to do it here instead of on the MA&D board so that Kevin and others can participate who can’t do so over there. And I figured I’d do it in the Celestial Kingdom in order to encourage everyone to just keep it dispassionate and as scholarly as possible.

Although my intention is not really to have a “debate” over the arguments, I do intend to follow up your arguments with several questions about certain elements of the manuscripts that seem to be problematic in terms of the dictation theory – and thereby invite your explanations of those things.

Thanks in advance for your participation.

William Schryver wrote:I’ve started this thread for the express purpose of inviting people like Kevin Graham, Chris Smith, Brackite – and anyone else who is so inclined – to delineate to the best of their ability the arguments that they believe support the premise that the KEPA Mss. #2 and #3 (Metcalfe’s 1a/1b) are the simultaneously-produced transcripts of Joseph Smith’s original dictation of the first chapter and a half of the Book of Abraham.

I want to do it here instead of on the MA&D board so that Kevin and others can participate who can’t do so over there. And I figured I’d do it in the Celestial Kingdom in order to encourage everyone to just keep it dispassionate and as scholarly as possible.

Although my intention is not really to have a “debate” over the arguments, I do intend to follow up your arguments with several questions about certain elements of the manuscripts that seem to be problematic in terms of the dictation theory – and thereby invite your explanations of those things.

Thanks in advance for your participation.

I just have one question: why is Chuck Norris in your avatar?

Runtu wrote:

William Schryver wrote:I’ve started this thread for the express purpose of inviting people like Kevin Graham, Chris Smith, Brackite – and anyone else who is so inclined – to delineate to the best of their ability the arguments that they believe support the premise that the KEPA Mss. #2 and #3 (Metcalfe’s 1a/1b) are the simultaneously-produced transcripts of Joseph Smith’s original dictation of the first chapter and a half of the Book of Abraham.

I want to do it here instead of on the MA&D board so that Kevin and others can participate who can’t do so over there. And I figured I’d do it in the Celestial Kingdom in order to encourage everyone to just keep it dispassionate and as scholarly as possible.

Although my intention is not really to have a “debate” over the arguments, I do intend to follow up your arguments with several questions about certain elements of the manuscripts that seem to be problematic in terms of the dictation theory – and thereby invite your explanations of those things.

Thanks in advance for your participation.

I just have one question: why is Chuck Norris in your avatar?

Ouch! That one really hurt. And just when I was beginning to think you were a nice guy!

Wish I had time, but I gotta write a 30-page paper about John Henry Newman and Renn Dickson Hampden by November 30th.

CaliforniaKid wrote:Wish I had time, but I gotta write a 30-page paper about John Henry Newman and Renn Dickson Hampden by November 30th.

No hurry. It can wait until you've got the time.

Same here.

I just arrived to Orlando yesterday and I'm missing my kids more than I thought.

A temporary federal regulation required all Brazilians leaving the country to have a vaccination for Yellow Fever. They told me that the shot might make me sick temporarily. Sick is an understatement.

Kinda ironic. I rarely get sick, but whenever I get vaccinated for anything I usually end up with a fever and runny nose. This one hit me hard.

I have some things to take care of here for teh time being but will get back to this thread as soon as I can.

I've been keeping a low profile these days and haven't been on the Internet very much. Spend a lot of time playing Star Wars Battlefront II. I'm pretty good at it.

Anyway, I'm going to the temple. I hope you all have a nice conversation about the KEP. That work was pretty important to the early brethren of the Church - including the First Presidency.

Paul O

I don`t have my computer set up here yet but I can provide a few points that can open up conversation.

John Gee asserted that the entire Book of Abraham had already been translated by the time these manuscripts were written, therefore these must represent copies. But his evidence is either exagerrated or fabricated from thin air. There are a few points that jump right out at me that point to this conclusion:

1) Both manuscripts begin with Abraham 1:4. So what happened to the first three verses if there was a mysterious "complete" source document from which these were copied?
2) It is superfluous to hire two different people to simply "copy" such a short text.
3) Each scribe makes the same precise mistakes as one would expect in a dictation scenario. It makes no sense to employ two different scribes to make an exact copy of an error ridden maunscript. Nothing like this took place with the Book of Mormon translation.

The reason the first three verses were skipped over has everything to do with the fact that the Sensen text was missing the first few characters immediately following Facsimile 1. Manuscripts 1a and 1b represent Joseph Smith's attempt to translate what was extant, and then afterwards he went back and divined the original characters, which provided the opening three verses. It seems unlikely that the scribes would have been involved in this kind of rogue activity, as Nibley presumes.

For the record, I feel fairly confident that the first half-page of MS 1 (Abr 1:1-3) was produced early in the process-- say, end of July-- and that when Joseph Smith produced MSS 2 and 3 by oral dictation, he merely picked up where MS 1 had left off. Neither of these being intended as anything like a final draft, he didn't bother having his scribes copy over vv. 1-3 prior to dictation.

For my rationale, you can see my paper.

Yea, that might be the case. For easy reference, here is the manuscript page:



The darker portion constitutes Abr 1:1-3, which was excluded in Ms 1a &1b. Compared to the lighter portion below, you can see it shows all the signs of dictated transcription. It is pretty banged up when compared to the smooth "copy" below.