Why people join or leave a church.
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:38 pm
So as not to further derail Liz' topic on doctrinal evidence for plural marriage, I have moved the conversation Truth Dancer and I are having here.
Her last post in that thread is copied here, and I am responding. Please join in this discussion with us.
What tactics and techniques? I express my opinion about what I believe, about what the Church teaches, about the interpretation of the "facts" of history. I tell people if I think they have something wrong about LDS doctrine, beliefs, history, etc. On a message board! And what extreme length? You make it sound like I am standing outside the Southern Baptist Worldwide Conference with a sign telling them they are all going to hell. Or making a deceptive DVD, and running around the neighborhood hanging it in a little baggie on doorknobs, ringing the bell and then jumping into the bushes to hide so I don't have to talk to a real person.
We don't talk about it. It is a rigorous training program sponsored by our Danite Retribution Committee. Boy, do I ever need a whole line of ROFL smilies.
Massive amounts time spent in reading. Observing apologist reponses. That kind of training.
No, the problem isn't that they all think they are right. The problem is that most of them are wrong. That's the test. We come down here to show that we can pick out the right one.
The Spirit only converts to the truth. Many religions have pieces of the truth, some even have a lot of pieces of the truth. Many people are doing what they should be doing at this time in their lives (including the post-mortal period) who are not members of the LDS Church as they listen to the Spirit and conform their lives to what He tells them.
It is also true that many people belong to churches for reasons which have nothing to do with the truths of the Gospel. I think this also applies to some people who are presently LDS.
I didn't say, nor do I believe that Satan "converts" people to other churches or religions. Satan has no ability to give a person the same sort of confirming experience to falsehood that the Spirit can for truth. People join other churches than the LDS Church for many reasons. Some of those reasons are they misinterpret an experience where the Spirit has testified to them of a truth, as meaning they should join some other church.
Didn't you mean that when you said the apologists, me in particular, may be instrumental in de-convering individuals?
Or merely a loss of the Spirit, a loss of testimony that just dwindles away, a choice which makes continued activity in Church problematical, a choice when presented with two contrary views to accept the contrary view over the position of the Church.
By definition, as they de-convert, release belief, they are no longer faithful to that religion. Once faithful does not matter in the long run. Enduring to the end is a requirement.
Faithful members of the Church who endure to the end are not "True Believers" in the Hoffer sense.
This is your mistake. The "pretty big stuff" are the doctrines of salvation. Nothing else is pretty big stuff. Where the critics make their often fatal mistake is in assuming that something that is "big" to them, really is. We are suposed to look at things in God's view.
This line has been used by rationalizers for a long time. You can't hid behind it. This is why we study, we look at the entire scriptural canon, we listen to prophets, we seek for an obtain the Spirit for ourselves. We might make a step off the path now and again, but we will get back on and keep going the right direction.
Now, does anyone want to jump in with any ideas about conversion, deconversion, etc?
Her last post in that thread is copied here, and I am responding. Please join in this discussion with us.
truth dancer wrote:I am hardly unique.
I have never encountered an apologists who uses your tactics and techniques to such extreme lengths.
What tactics and techniques? I express my opinion about what I believe, about what the Church teaches, about the interpretation of the "facts" of history. I tell people if I think they have something wrong about LDS doctrine, beliefs, history, etc. On a message board! And what extreme length? You make it sound like I am standing outside the Southern Baptist Worldwide Conference with a sign telling them they are all going to hell. Or making a deceptive DVD, and running around the neighborhood hanging it in a little baggie on doorknobs, ringing the bell and then jumping into the bushes to hide so I don't have to talk to a real person.
truth dancer wrote:I've trained under expert apologists.
I've never heard about an apologists training program. Could you elaborate?
We don't talk about it. It is a rigorous training program sponsored by our Danite Retribution Committee. Boy, do I ever need a whole line of ROFL smilies.
Massive amounts time spent in reading. Observing apologist reponses. That kind of training.
It is not an apologists job to re-convert anyone who has "left" the Church.
truth dancer wrote:[
I do not think anyone has suggested it is. Apologists for all religions share a similar purpose. Problem is they all think they are right with the one true God at the helm. :-)
No, the problem isn't that they all think they are right. The problem is that most of them are wrong. That's the test. We come down here to show that we can pick out the right one.
truth dancer wrote:The Spirit converts. And since there is opposition in all things, it is the "other" influence which de-converts.
Who converts someone to Scientology? Islam? JW? Catholicism? Paganism? Who de-converts someone from Scientology? Islam? JW? Catholicism? Paganism?
You seem to suggest that Satan "de-converts" people from the LDS church but it is the HG that de-converts people from every other religion? Conversely, it is the HG who converts people to the LDS church but Satan who converts people to other faiths?
The Spirit only converts to the truth. Many religions have pieces of the truth, some even have a lot of pieces of the truth. Many people are doing what they should be doing at this time in their lives (including the post-mortal period) who are not members of the LDS Church as they listen to the Spirit and conform their lives to what He tells them.
It is also true that many people belong to churches for reasons which have nothing to do with the truths of the Gospel. I think this also applies to some people who are presently LDS.
I didn't say, nor do I believe that Satan "converts" people to other churches or religions. Satan has no ability to give a person the same sort of confirming experience to falsehood that the Spirit can for truth. People join other churches than the LDS Church for many reasons. Some of those reasons are they misinterpret an experience where the Spirit has testified to them of a truth, as meaning they should join some other church.
truth dancer wrote:We often hear of people who are offended by bishops, other leaders, members, etc. and that causes them to leave the Church.
I have never heard of this with the exception of unsourced accusations from LDS leaders.
Didn't you mean that when you said the apologists, me in particular, may be instrumental in de-convering individuals?
truth dancer wrote:But it is never a person who causes an individual to leave.
I totally agree. It is never a person, it is knowledge, information, growth, expansion, development, ideas, awareness etc. etc. etc. I'm NOT suggesting that new knowledge is true, I'm saying that it seems the reason for disbelief from every religion is new awareness, information, or knowledge, true or not.
Or merely a loss of the Spirit, a loss of testimony that just dwindles away, a choice which makes continued activity in Church problematical, a choice when presented with two contrary views to accept the contrary view over the position of the Church.
truth dancer wrote:The faithful member stays faithful no matter what.
This is nonsense. Faithful members of all religions move on, "de-convert" release belief, or change beliefs.
By definition, as they de-convert, release belief, they are no longer faithful to that religion. Once faithful does not matter in the long run. Enduring to the end is a requirement.
truth dancer wrote:Now, if you mean True Believers, in the Eric Hoffer sense of the term, then yes, we can all agree that they will never leave their religions regardless of what faith tradition they embrace.
Faithful members of the Church who endure to the end are not "True Believers" in the Hoffer sense.
truth dancer wrote:Those who have the Spirit with them can discern the truth. This doesn't mean that everyone will see. But that is within the individual.
This makes me smile. :-)
If it were true, then prophets, leaders, and many who claim to be in tune with the HG would get it right. This is just not the case. Prophets and leaders of the church who very much thought they were in tune were totally and completely wrong on some pretty big stuff. What happened to the mantra, prophets are not infallible? They make mistakes even when they think they are receiving revelation and inspiration. I've heard faithful members bear testimony to completely incorrect things all the time.
This is your mistake. The "pretty big stuff" are the doctrines of salvation. Nothing else is pretty big stuff. Where the critics make their often fatal mistake is in assuming that something that is "big" to them, really is. We are suposed to look at things in God's view.
truth dancer wrote:Even Joseph Smith himself stated that one could not always tell between revelation from God, Satan, or man.
This line has been used by rationalizers for a long time. You can't hid behind it. This is why we study, we look at the entire scriptural canon, we listen to prophets, we seek for an obtain the Spirit for ourselves. We might make a step off the path now and again, but we will get back on and keep going the right direction.
Now, does anyone want to jump in with any ideas about conversion, deconversion, etc?