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Abortion and Embryonic Stem-Cell cell research are both fairly easy topics to see why there is wide spread opposition within the church.

#1 Science unequivocally tells us when life begins that point is fertilization/conception. If we were to test the sperm and egg before implantation the DNA test would come back as Sally and Jake. After the egg is fertilized the test would come back as the son/daughter of Sally and Jake. From this point forward every cell in its body will be genetically distinct and recognizably different from either of its parents.

Science also can let us know what type of life something is (Human/pig/dog/chipmunk etc.) through DNA testing or simply looking at the parents.

It might not be convenient or politically palatable but the science is very clear human life begins at conception.

#2 GOD says human life is intrinsically valuable and precious Young-old, healthy-sick, guilty-innocent, happy-sad, All of it, no exceptions. To kill/murder the innocent, helpless, child is a heinous and egregious sin that not only kills the child but scars the souls of all involved mother, doctor, nurse, body parts salesman, even the society it takes place in.

These to two arguments mean that virtually all Christian churches range from gravely troubled by to rabidly opposed to Abortion.

Embryonic Stem-Cell research has the same arguments in opposition as abortion dose as well as the added moral dilemma of deliberately creating human life for the purpose of killing, harvesting, or using it for research.

Conversely Adult Stem cell research and therapy face virtually no opposition among churches since they don’t kill anybody and have actually produced 50+ cures or therapies (vs. 0 for the embryonic stem cell research.)

Most Christian churches try and see if GOD has given us his views on a subject and do their best to bring themselves into line with his wisdom. If the topic is not explicitly addressed they try and study the whole of scripture and see if their might be general principles involved that would speak to an issue.

Unity comes in areas where there is clear scriptural teaching or easily discernable values. Topics that rely on human judgments such as situations dealing with tough love vs. compassion (welfare?), justice vs. mercy (capitol punishment?) often provide (perhaps intentionally) opportunities for different people, groups, and churches to have different opinions on the proper course of action.

jonLinn wrote:Opps sent this twice sorry was my first time :)

I'll forgive you, but your post is largely off topic for my thread. In this thread I don't want to discuss any connection between abortion and murder whether scientific or otherwise. The topic of my thread is about why Christians tend to be conservative while many others tend to be more liberal. Most non-theists also believe that life is important but do not have the same views about when human life begins. In this thread I want to focus on where those differences come from as well as the seeming unity among Christians instead of arguing to demonstrate that abortion is murder--even as a side argument. I don't want it in this thread at all please.

If you'd like to explain why abortion is murder, I would kindly ask you to either start your own thread, or reply to Scottie's thread about atheist converts. While it is a worthy topic, I don't wish to discuss it here. The on-topic part of your post I appreciate and hope you will retain it.

Thanks in advance for you cooperation in this regard and welcome to the board.

asbestosman wrote:

jonLinn wrote:Opps sent this twice sorry was my first time :)

I'll forgive you, but your post is largely off topic for my thread. In this thread I don't want to discuss any connection between abortion and murder whether scientific or otherwise. The topic of my thread is about why Christians tend to be conservative while many others tend to be more liberal. Most non-theists also believe that life is important but do not have the same views about when human life begins. In this thread I want to focus on where those differences come from as well as the seeming unity among Christians instead of arguing to demonstrate that abortion is murder--even as a side argument. I don't want it in this thread at all please.

If you'd like to explain why abortion is murder, I would kindly ask you to either start your own thread, or reply to Scottie's thread about atheist converts. While it is a worthy topic, I don't wish to discuss it here. The on-topic part of your post I appreciate and hope you will retain it.

Thanks in advance for you cooperation in this regard and welcome to the board.

(just wanted to jump in here quickly and commend you for your polite handling of this problem. I've been pondering what I see as recurring problems with discussion on this board and what possible options there are for fixing them.)

But where does Jesus himself speak on abortion and homosexuality? There are a lot of things that are moral issues in Christianity today that either Jesus didn't speak on, or He did emphatically, and folks ignore it.

Sam Harris wrote:But where does Jesus himself speak on abortion and homosexuality? There are a lot of things that are moral issues in Christianity today that either Jesus didn't speak on, or He did emphatically, and folks ignore it.

He doesn't, at least not on record. I was just noting that the religious right tend to focus more on Christ's severity and the religious left tends to focus on his radical egalitarianism. Very few take both with them into the realm of politics (or into their life at all, for that matter).

The Nehor wrote:

Sam Harris wrote:But where does Jesus himself speak on abortion and homosexuality? There are a lot of things that are moral issues in Christianity today that either Jesus didn't speak on, or He did emphatically, and folks ignore it.

He doesn't, at least not on record. I was just noting that the religious right tend to focus more on Christ's severity and the religious left tends to focus on his radical egalitarianism. Very few take both with them into the realm of politics (or into their life at all, for that matter).

Point made. :-)

I'ma spank you...you know why...

jonLinn wrote:Abortion and Embryonic Stem-Cell cell research are both fairly easy topics to see why there is wide spread opposition within the church.

#1 Science unequivocally tells us when life begins that point is fertilization/conception.

BS! A fertilzed egg is no more alive than an unfertilized egg. Both are molecular machines.

1. Neither is conscious,
2. Neither can reproduce,
3. Neither have plans, dersires or thoughts,
4. Neither feel pain or pleasure.

Tarski wrote:

jonLinn wrote:Abortion and Embryonic Stem-Cell cell research are both fairly easy topics to see why there is wide spread opposition within the church.

#1 Science unequivocally tells us when life begins that point is fertilization/conception.

BS! A fertilzed egg is no more alive than an unfertilized egg. Both are molecular machines.

1. Neither is conscious,
2. Neither can reproduce,
3. Neither have plans, dersires or thoughts,
4. Neither feel pain or pleasure.

Well, I think life and sentience are two separate states. A fertilized egg is as alive as bacteria is. Whether there is a moral difference between destroying the two is the question.

Tarski, Nehor, and jonLinn,

Please take your debate to another thread. I'll join you there. I don't want that argument to detract from the topic of this thread. If a mod will move it, I'm fine with that too.

I usually don't mind a little veering off topic, but some topics such as abortion end up dominating the thread and then leave me without the benefit of discussing that many Christians are liberal, or without benefit of discussing patriarchy and the like.

If everyone is agreeable I'll split it off to a new thread (perhaps in the Celestial to start?)