DiscussMormonism.com

Hi, I'm Cynthia... New here and fairly new to learning about the LDS faith and community.

My 15-year-old daughter had gotten into some pretty serious trouble. A little over a year ago, she precipitated a crisis, and we did an intervention. She was on a dangerous trajectory; we had to pull her out of her life, so we could save her life. She went first to a Wilderness Therapy program and then to a residential treatment center; both were in Utah.

She met a lot of Mormons there, of course, and eventually began attending an LDS church.

She's been home for 8 weeks now. Her time in treatment was transformative: She's clean and sober, committed to 12-Step recovery, and she's creating a new life for herself, at a new school, with positive friends and wholesome activities. She's friendly, open, and available to work things out with me now, unlike the "hard" and angry persona she had adopted... and she's also been baptized and confirmed into the church.

She attends seminary most mornings before school, which means we both get up at 5 a.m. and walk out the door shortly after 6... I've been attending church every week with her, and participating in ward activities as a parent and as an inquirer. And I've done a lot of reading about LDS history, beliefs, etc.

I have some concerns. For example, I don't like way young women and young men are encouraged to think differently about their futures, and I'm wary of the possibilities for abuse of "priestly" authority.

But I am also grateful for many things. The people in our ward have been warm and friendly, welcoming and kind. There are many positive and fun activities for the youth, with appropriate adult supervision, and my daughter has been making friendships based on shared values and having "good clean fun" together. She is having no problem at all avoiding drugs and alcohol in this peer group, and that is not a small thing in the adolescent culture these days.

The ward has given her a great deal that is of value.

I don't think I'll end up converting. I can't get past the "one and only true church" idea.

I don't think God cares which church I do or don't attend, or which books I do or don't accept as "true" and "sacred."

I think God cares about how I live my life - and, in particular, how I treat my fellow human beings.

I think, to God, churches and books are like the toys we give our children... not essential in themselves, but useful for people to learn and grow.

However, if participating in a certain church and/or accepting certain books as "sacred" helps a person live a more generous, kind, and loving life, then I think it's wonderful.

As I see it, there are many churches (and synagogues, mosques, temples, meeting houses, etc.) and many books that can function this way in people's lives. Not just one.

Hi, Cynthia.

It's nice to "meet" you as it were, and I'm glad you're on the board. Welcome!

Also, I'm very glad your daughter has made changes for the better. I have a fourteen year old daughter, as well as three younger daughters, and I can imagine the pain and frustration your daughter's previous poor choices caused you. You must feel so relieved! I'm sure your daughter is happier, too. :)

There are good things about the Mormon church. As a former Mormon, I believe those good things can be found in many places, most of them less controlling than Mormonism, but it's good that your daughter has found something that, for the time being, is helpful to her.

You are aware of some of the good things about Mormonism, but I hope you will study so that you can see clearly the whole picture. It is likely, should your daughter remain Mormon, that you will not be able to witness her wedding ceremony. Also, the history of the Mormon Church is whitewashed by the church itself, especially history that places doubt re: the reliability and character of Joseph Smith.

Again, welcome to the board. I don't wish to deluge you with information that you may not want, but if you have questions, please ask them. I'm happy to answer as honestly as I can, though my perceptions of Mormonism are no doubt different than those of a current member. Others from the board are helpful as well and will help you as they are able.

Take care,

Kimberly Ann

Thanks for the friendly welcome, Kimberly Ann.

Yes, I am very grateful for my daughter's "new life" - yes, indeed. And you're right, she's oh-so-much happier.

I probably would never have even considered spending time in Mormon community if I hadn't been following her lead, respecting where her spiritual journey has taken her, appreciating the positive things she's received, and wanting to share some of the experience with her.

And I have already read quite a bit about the history of the church, and the "official" whitewashing, in the last few months. I continue reading & learning...

But, at a certain level, I think that stuff doesn't really matter.

I don't insist that a person must be perfect before I will accept that he or she might have something of value to teach me, perhaps even something divinely inspired.

A prophet wouldn't necessarily be functioning as a prophet all the time. So learning about someone's feet of clay doesn't necessarily mean he or she wasn't divinely inspired, some of the time.

I think the problems come when people insist that a prophet must have been always speaking and acting from divine inspiration... The church can only present Smith in such a light by "whitewashing" his history.

But to me it's even more amazing and inspiring, that a flawed-like-me human could have been touched by the Divine.

I think the challenge is, how could I sort out when a prophet - perhaps Joseph Smith, I don't know yet - when was this prophet divinely inspired and when was he or she acting from his or her limited human ego? Which of his/her words and teachings deserve honoring?

Can I trust my own intuition about this? I hope so...

Hi, again, Cynthia.

I appreciate that you believe God doesn't care much about religion. Mormonism is, I think, is the antithesis of your philosophy. Joseph Smith certainly taught that God cares about what religion one joins. God cares so much, according to Mormonism, that one cannot be in the presence of God without becoming Mormon. That's why Mormons do temple work for the dead. They believe they are converting the dead, even the believing dead of other faiths, to Mormonism. Mormonism isn't "optional" if one wants to see God, at least according to the Mormons.

And I agree that imperfect people can give good advice in many areas. Thank goodness! There's not a one of us perfect, and I trust the opinions of many good people, in spite of their flaws. The difference is that Joseph Smith wasn't giving advice on teaching kids to read or the best way to plant tulip bulbs or even a good way to interpret the Bible. Smith claimed to have seen God. He claimed God told him all existing religions were false, their creeds abominations. He claimed to be the one and only prophet on the earth at the time and to be the conduit for divine revelation. His credibility is an inescapable issue. He must be credible and reliable and honest for one to believe such an unbelievable story.

The problem is that Joseph Smith is farther from credible than most of the folks I now know or have ever known. I'm betting that's true of you, as well. After the so-called first vision (of which there are three accounts), Joseph Smith set about making money as a "glass-looker". He put a stone in a hat, put his face in the brim, and for a fee, told folks where treasure was buried on their property. That's the same method he used when "translating" the Book of Mormon. Stone and face in hat.

He married upwards of thirty women behind his wife's back, he was instrumental in a massive bank failure in Kirtland, (the Kirtland "anti-banking" Society), he bought a mummy and from a papyrus roll, which he said was written by the hand of Abraham, translated the Book of Abraham, which is still in the Mormon cannon. The trouble is, the roll was later found and is nothing more than a common Egyptian funerary document. Not written by the hand of Abraham. Not at all able to be translated into the Book of Abraham.

I guess the dilemma is what is more likely? That a man predisposed to fraud who later claimed to have seen God and to be a prophet was once again perpetuating fraud on unsuspecting people or that God really did choose a man as unreliable and shifty as Joseph Smith to be His one mouthpiece on the face of the earth? Also, that same God would have had to demand that Smith marry other women behind his wife's back, and some of those women behind their husbands' backs. Yes, he married women who were already married. The history is quite sordid, when one digs into it enough.

As I said yesterday, there are good things about Mormonism, but that doesn't make it "true." The sincere and good Mormons don't, by their goodness, make Mormonism "true." Also, there are many things about Mormon culture that I consider harmful, and of which you should be aware. But, I've said way more than my two cents, so I'll break for now. :)

I appreciate your reading my ramblings. If you want to research further, I suggest Richard Packham's site. It's down at the moment, but here is a nice excerpt:

To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism

Richard is a reliable source and a good man, whom I've met in person.

I hope the rest of your weekend is great.

Kimberly

Thanks, Kimberly.

I appreciate your taking the time to share all this with me.

Most of what you've written isn't new to me. I've been reading about LDS, on-line and off, for about 5 months now. Reading apologists as well as critics, and mulling things over.

As I wrote above, I don't think I'll ever convert. Even if Joseph Smith (and others in the church leadership) had led an exemplary life, I still couldn't embrace the "one and only true church" idea.

I've been attending church & LDS-community activities with my daughter, wanting to share the experiences with her, and wanting to do some "family" things together with her new friends and their parents. I'll probably continue with some of this, though I wouldn't feel deprived if I never went to Relief Society again... And also, I want to keep a watchful eye on what my daughter is doing at church, seminary, Young Women's, etc.

If you don't mind, what things about Mormon culture do you think are harmful?

No way to know if my daughter will stay with this for a long time or not...

Thanks again,
Cynthia

loves2sing wrote:If you don't mind, what things about Mormon culture do you think are harmful?

Have KimberlyAnn tell you about the "cupcakes" lesson.

Two of the most harmful things about Mormon culture (from my perspective as an ex-mormon who grew up in the church):

-the idea that asking critical questions about your beliefs is somehow sinful or inappropriate;
-the "us vs. them" culture.

By the second aspect, I'm referring to the idea that Mormons are somehow more special, more holy, more blessed than the world at large. Even though, as a Mormon, you're taught to love others and care for them, there is a strong undercurrent in Mormon culture that the "gentiles" are less worthy and (perhaps) less intelligent. It was an amazing thing for me when I finally concluded that the church is not "true" and that my entire life I'd subconciously been looking down on everyone else in the world for reasons that aren't valid.

In my opinion, and people will tell you that I am a very critical convert, the church is a good place for your daughter to be right now. It's working for her. While there are other systems which also might work, this is the one she is actively engaged in. That is the most important thing... that she is actively engaged. I'm a little curious as to why you chose treatment in Utah, but that's none of my business.

On the surface, the church is a good place. So my advice is to stay on the surface. Be aware that there are some things that are changing that should have changed decades ago. From an announcement that came home with my hubby from ward council, they are moving away from the closed door bishop's interviews. This is a good thing. I don't know if its only my stake, or it that's church wide. The licked cupcake lesson is very likely a thing of the past, and if it shows up in your ward, you are forewarned. Yes, young girls are constantly bombarded with "temple marriage" "motherhood only" kinds of things, but you can combat that at home; I was successful in raising girls who both have masters' degrees.

From my point of view, those who most successfully make the church work for them are those who don't take it too seriously. If you or your daughter dive beneath the surface, you'll find all sorts of stuff that is just bogus. But if you stay on the surface, where she is right now, she'll continue to find it useful in her life. Lots of fun activities, warm fuzzies, friendly people. Be aware, however, that should she leave the church behind at some point in her life, preferably after she graduates from high school and is able to cope with her impulses, she will likely leave all the friends she made while a member. Mormons find it difficult to be friends with former Mormons.

Kimberly Ann, please share the cupcakes story. If you've already shared it on this board, a link to that posting would do just fine.

Harmony, thanks for your response.

I sent her to Utah because there are no similar treatment programs for adolescents here in California... something about the laws in the different states. Many teens from CA end up in programs in Utah; there's a thriving industry there. I've heard lots of stories, not all happy ones, but the places my daughter went were very, very helpful to her. I believe it was a combination of two good programs and her eventual willingness to embrace her own recovery.

The programs are not LDS-affiliated, and there was no attempt to convert her. She met LDS members who worked at the treatment center, and talked about the church with them. Once she earned the privilege of going to church, she chose to go to the local LDS ward.

I agree with you, that her active engagement with the LDS community is a good thing for her - for now.

She thinks she's going deeply into the teachings, at seminary and in her own scripture study, but I believe she never looks at anything except what the church gives her. She's not interested in questioning anything right now.

I view this as part of her spiritual journey, and I respect her right to have her own experiences in that arena. If she stays with LDS for a long time, I will probably share some other perspectives with her, but for now I'm just participating in some activities as her Mom.

And I'm very grateful for the positive peer group and the wholesome activities, as I wrote above.