Page 1 of 4
Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:15 pm
by _moksha
This is from a post by philosopher Bill on the LDS Forum at Beliefnet. It seems like it contains lessons to be learned or at least thoughts to ponder.
By now, it must be common knowledge that a gay couple got arrested, while walking across the Plaza in Salt Lake City, for trespassing. Apparently, they were on their way from a concert, were walking across the Plaza - like others - and were stopped by security when one gave the other a kiss on the cheek. After an argument ensued, the cops were called and the men were led away in handcuffs. In no time at all, the story was on the AP wire, making its way around the world: Mormons Arrest Gay Couple for Kissing.
I realize that security guards are pretty low on the pecking order, which perhaps forces their hand when it comes to enforcing the rules, but could this situation have been handled with greater stupidity? (After thinking of Kent State, I realize there's always a worse way to handle a situation.) As someone who has had to shoo skateboarders off of school property, I'm well aware of what happens when you walk out like Barney Fife. The last thing you'd want to do is make criminals - and martyrs - out of somebody for something as petty as a kiss on the cheek.
Some will say that the media has a bias against Mormons, but nutty behavior is a magnet for unwanted attention. Increasingly, this is becoming the face of Mormonism - petty, controlling, narrow-minded silliness serving little, if any, larger purpose. There's a growing sense that those most out of touch are having the greatest impact in defining the image of the Church and its members. Blame Satan if you like, but I think the problem is closer to home. In the meantime, everything else about Mormons and Mormonism gets quietly ignored, drowned out by the roar of the stupid and the petty.
I don't know if the face of the Church is changing or if I'm just slow to recognize how out of touch things are, but it's frustrating to watch these trainwrecks and realize I can't do anything about them. Is this the Restored Gospel? Ownership and control of the Plaza? Is this where the battle between good and evil is being fought?
What are your thoughts about this?
Re: Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:54 am
by _Gazelam
When I was little I used to hear at church about how in the last days good would be evil and evil would be good. I remember thinking that was silly. How could that ever happen?
Now here we are a short distance into the end times and its happening. A mere twenty years ago the news would be reporting on the audacity of a gay couple showing affection in public in Salt Lake city, now we are villifying the security guards who told them to stop.
The lesson I was taught as a child does not seem so silly anymore.
Re: Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:12 pm
by _moksha
Gaz, there are so many more terrible things happening in this world, do you feel that a stroll while holding hands and a brief kiss on the cheek were really worthy of this reaction? Gays happen. Should no kissing signs be posted for this one block Church parkway they needed to cross on their way home?
Re: Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:03 am
by _hobart
nutty behavior is a magnet for unwanted attention.
I think that encapsulates it all right there. I am all for the church's right to their own private property...just as I would like to hold the right to have arrested anyone on my property for any reason. But the LDS church needs to know, while they have the right to dictate these things on their property, they don't have the right to expect popular opinion won't judge the church negatively for it. I have the feeling that the LDS church, with much of conservative Christianity will become antiquated (even more than it already is) in my lifetime. Is it a sign of the "end times"? I don't think so. Civilization has been fluid and changing for thousands and thousands of years; what would make me believe this is any different?
Re: Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:29 pm
by _zzyzx
Interesting they were even watched in the first place. I have seen many girls holding hands while on visits to Temple Rectangle.(The Square plus the stolen section of Main Street) Have seen it even before he addition of 'a little bit of Paris.
I see it in Church meetings with girls grooming each other... a behavior that would get boys thrown out of meetings in short order.
We won't really find out the truth of the matter unless security cameras or other video comes to light.
Intolerance of others is the reason LDS have been disliked nearly everywhere they have been. It got them chased out of Ohio, Missouri and Illinois. Intolerance on the part of LDS in trampling the rights of everyone else while pushing their agenda and oftimes illegal activies.
The Plaza fiasco is one more act of stupidity by a group of little Hitlers who believe they can do anything they want and those who don't like it are persecuting them. Paranoia from the top down gets worse each time it is repeated. It is a wonder the two guys weren't shot.
Re: Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:05 pm
by _harmony
zzyzx wrote:The Plaza fiasco is one more act of stupidity by a group of little Hitlers who believe they can do anything they want and those who don't like it are persecuting them.
Well, in SLC, they can do anything they want. In Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Denver, Chicago... you name another city, and this would not have happened.
Paranoia from the top down gets worse each time it is repeated. It is a wonder the two guys weren't shot.
Well, that would mean the Danites are active again, and Lord knows they don't want
that rumor alive again. Next thing ya know, people would be speculating that plural marriages are being performed in the temple again.
Re: Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:31 am
by _bcspace
What fiasco? We will always be different and should be promoting that fact. Considering all that goes on against the Church in the area, I would be especially on the lookout for this sort of situation to break it up and ticket/arrest the perpetrators whether they meant to make a statement or not.
Re: Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:30 pm
by _maklelan
zzyzx wrote:Interesting they were even watched in the first place. I have seen many girls holding hands while on visits to Temple Rectangle.(The Square plus the stolen section of Main Street) Have seen it even before he addition of 'a little bit of Paris.
I see it in Church meetings with girls grooming each other... a behavior that would get boys thrown out of meetings in short order.
We won't really find out the truth of the matter unless security cameras or other video comes to light.
And now that a police report and eyewitnesses have come forward that corroborate the story of the guards, what are your thoughts? Do you still want to defend the admittedly drunk and belligerent couple who were evidently making out and groping each other and swore violently at security personnel who told them they were welcome to stay as long as they stopped the making out?
zzyzx wrote:Intolerance of others is the reason LDS have been disliked nearly everywhere they have been. It got them chased out of Ohio, Missouri and Illinois. Intolerance on the part of LDS in trampling the rights of everyone else while pushing their agenda and oftimes illegal activies.
So intolerance on the part of Mormonism is why their presence was not tolerated by Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois? It has nothing to do with the expressed fears of Mormon political power and Joseph Smith's position?
zzyzx wrote:The Plaza fiasco is one more act of stupidity by a group of little Hitlers who believe they can do anything they want and those who don't like it are persecuting them.
This is true, but now that the facts have been cleared up, we know that the gay couple is that group.
zzyzx wrote:Paranoia from the top down gets worse each time it is repeated. It is a wonder the two guys weren't shot.
Wow, you're just seething with bias and hatred. Good to see it hasn't clouded your judgment any.
Re: Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:29 pm
by _Yoda
From Mak's description, it sounds like the couple was in the wrong, and that those findings are supported by eyewitness documentation.
Frankly, this type of behavior by militant gay couples makes me angry. It doesn't help the gay marriage cause, or the discrimination cause at all.
My very best friend, Jeff, is gay. He is a talented singer, actor, teacher, great with kids, and one of the most responsible people I know. When my husband, younger children and I were going to be out of town over Spring Break last summer, my oldest daughter, Katie, was going to be at the house by herself because she had to work. It was Jeff who I immediately asked to check in on her throughout the week, and make sure that she was OK. Believe me, my husband and I don't just entrust anyone with the safety of our children.
I have seen some of the hatred and discrimination that my friend has had to endure, and it honestly hurts my heart.
It still, however, does not excuse bad behavior. If this couple was drunk and disrespectful on private property, then the security folks were doing their job.
Re: Plaza Fiasco Lessons
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:25 pm
by _harmony
liz3564 wrote: If this couple was drunk and disrespectful on private property, then the security folks were doing their job.
And if they weren't?