DiscussMormonism.com

The other day I visited a used book store and picked up a copy of The Forgotten Books of Eden, Lost Books of the Old Testament. It contains an account of events that occured after the Fall, giving details regarding Adam and Eves misery in their new enviorment (Adam hurls himself off a mountain in his grief, wishing for relief), their fist meal (God commands them to eat, Adam beign afraid to eat due to what happened before) , their dealings with Satan ( His deceptions and lies know no bounds), etc... fascinating reading. There are obvious scribal insertions, but not enough to trouble you as you read it.

One part got my mind working though. On page 25 we find God commanding the angel who guarded the Garden to bring Adam and Eve two figs for them to eat. I'll quote it:

Chap. XXXVI verse 4-5
Then the cherub took two figs and brought them to Adam and Eve. But he threw them to them from afar; for they might not come near the cherub by reason of their flesh, that could not come near the fire.
At first, angels trembled at the presence of Adam and were afraid of him. But now Adam trembled before the angels and was afraid of them.

This to me is incredible, and ties in so strongly to the teachings of Joseph Smith.

We read in section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants details concerning our resurrection. Beginning in verse 7 we are taught regarding the light of Christ, and how it gives life to all things, and lifts and upholds and governs the entire universe, giving light to the sun, and is the very power by which all things are made. It is also the law by which all things are governed. ( see vs. 7-13)

In verse 14 the lesson is applied directly to us. It states that the spirit and the body combined make up the soul of man. Our resurrection will be the redemtion of our soul. Did you catch that? It is in the resurrection that we find to what degree we will be redeemed. The following verses describe why this is so. It is Christ who redeems us, and the resurrection is a free gift to all mankind. All will be resurrected, but we will come forth in the resurrection with different types of bodies. Some Celestial, some terrestrial, some telestial, and some bodies incapable of withstanding any degree of glory. We sanctify these bodies given to us, this base material, according to the degree we allow the light of Christ to operate withen us by our obedience to the laws Christ has given us. Those who live a Celestial law will receive Celestial bodies (see vs.18-20)

verse 21
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

I like the way Truman Madsen put it when he spoke on the subject. He likened it to a current of electricity, or a wavelength, and you had to attune your body to that frequency or voltage. If you became accustomed to that way of being, it rose with you in the resurrection.

So as not to appear lighthearted or I will only speak on this in the vaguest way. In the Temple we learn about how to pass by the guardians at the gates of heaven. Since all are to be resurrected, there is nothing presented to he first gatekeeper, merely a greeting of peace. it is to the second and third gatekeeper that we are asked to present something. In other words, we will be showing what we have done with the base materials we have been given. Have we exalted our material through our keeping of Christs laws? To what degree have we allowed the Light of Christ into our lives, to what degree has it effected our bodies and souls?

Adams disobedience lowered his standing, his material was effected, and he could no longer bear the presence of angels. Will we be able to bear the presence of higher beings who live their lives according to Celestial laws? Or will we retain a portion of our fallen condition, having this base material gaing control of us with its baser desires of carnality and sensuality. How can we be entrusted to gather and shape the material needed to create worlds, if we cannot control this bit of dust that encases our spirits?

Things to ponder........
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Gaz...I'm doing a show and just got home from rehearsal, so I will comment on this tomorrow in more detail. Excellent thread, by the way..lots of things to think about.

I do have a question. There are those who I believe will be worthy of celestial glory based on their righteous living even though they may not have had the opportunity to go to the temple. Do you think that these folks will still have celestial bodies even though they may not possess the knowledge of the signs and tokens? I would think they would. What are your thoughts?

Gazelam wrote:Have we exalted our material through our keeping of Christs laws? To what degree have we allowed the Light of Christ into our lives, to what degree has it effected our bodies and souls?

If the temple really reflected on the light of Christ or the keeping of Christ's laws, you'd be onto something, Gaz. But it doesn't. The temple is all about the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law. Questions about the Word of Wisdom, about paying tithing, about sustaining men are questions about the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law. If it was about the spirit, there would only be two questions: Do you love Christ more than you love yourself? Do you believe you are worthy to enter his temple?

Adams disobedience lowered his standing, his material was effected, and he could no longer bear the presence of angels.

You're referencing uncanonized unauthorized myth, Gaz, as if it was truth. Caution is warrented.

Will we be able to bear the presence of higher beings who live their lives according to Celestial laws?

If we cannot, none of us has the Holy Ghost within us. Thus the answer to your question is: we already do.

Or will we retain a portion of our fallen condition, having this base material gaing control of us with its baser desire of carnality and sensuality. How can we be entrusted to gather and shape the material needed to create worlds, if we cannot control this bit of dust that encases our spirits?

[/quote]

I have no intention of creating worlds or spend eternity creating spirit children, Gaz. I have no desire to rule worlds. If I can't ride a drop of rain, I'm going to be terribly disappointed.

Liz,

I do have a question. There are those who I believe will be worthy of celestial glory based on their righteous living even though they may not have had the opportunity to go to the temple. Do you think that these folks will still have celestial bodies even though they may not possess the knowledge of the signs and tokens? I would think they would. What are your thoughts?

I would agree with you Liz, but with a stipulation that answers the second half of your response.

People who live by faith can see the Kingdom of God.

People who are baptised can enter the Kingdom of God, because they are Christs and he has claim on them, they haven taken on his name in baptism.

People who go through the Temple and honor its covenants can enter into the House of God, having shown themselves worthy to bear the family name and capable of doing the great work of that same Family.

Gods house is a house of order, and all who would be a part of it must bear the family name.

Harmony,

Thanks alot for your response. You had alot of interesting things to say.

If the temple really reflected on the light of Christ or the keeping of Christ's laws, you'd be onto something, Gaz. But it doesn't. The temple is all about the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.

Harm, you either haven't studied enough, or didn't pay enough attention while you were there. You seem to not understand that Law and spirituality work hand in hand, not seperately. Remember that God is God because he has all knowledge and adheres to it. That implies adherence to existing laws, and you don't get more spiritual than God. Think about it.

If it was about the spirit, there would only be two questions: Do you love Christ more than you love yourself?

If you love him, keep his commandments (Laws, not all of which are simply defined) More than yourself implies setting aside personal views and desires for truth, or perhaps better atuneing oneself to the spirit might be a better way of putting it.

Do you believe you are worthy to enter his temple?

Rarely

You're referencing uncanonized unauthorized myth, Gaz, as if it was truth. Caution is warrented.

Agreed, but as I stated (implied), much of what was in this text bears a familiar spirit.

I have no intention of creating worlds or spend eternity creating spirit children, Gaz. I have no desire to rule worlds. If I can't ride a drop of rain, I'm going to be terribly disappointed.

What is your idea of heaven? After you spend a few years riding raindrops and whatnot. (Not being snarky there, that actually sounds quite fun)

Chap. XXXVI verse 4-5

4. Then the cherub took two figs and brought them to Adam and Eve. But he threw them to them from afar; for they might not come near the cherub by reason of their flesh, that could not come near the fire.

5. At first, angels trembled at the presence of Adam and were afraid of him. But now Adam trembled before the angels and was afraid of them.

Do celestialized beings feel fear?

This is pretty much how I understood it when I was a believer. Our bodies undergo fundamental, physical changes in response to our worthiness, and that is what determines whether or not we can stand the presence of glorified beings. This would explain why unworthy individuals cannot be in the presence of Heavenly Father.

However, in retrospect, I think there are some problems with this construct. For one thing, God is able to somehow neutralize this effect when he wants to. God did "something" to Joseph Smith in order to make Joseph Smith to be able to tolerate being in his presence for the First Vision - otherwise he would have died. So God is apparently able and willing to neutralize this effect in order to allow lesser beings to withstand his presence. So what can't a loving Father neutralize this effect so that he can still see his terrestrial and telestial offspring in the next life?

Gazelam wrote:Harm, you either haven't studied enough, or didn't pay enough attention while you were there. You seem to not understand that Law and spirituality work hand in hand, not seperately. Remember that God is God because he has all knowledge and adheres to it. That implies adherence to existing laws, and you don't get more spiritual than God. Think about it.

My emphasis: Try to keep your tone less condescending, Gaz. We'll have a much more pleasant conversation that way. I don't want to have to move this thread to the next kingdom down.

God may have all knowledge, but the men he has in charge of the church do not. The TRI questions are designed to control the letter of the law. The spirit of the law, that part that shows the contrite spirit, the compassionate spirit, the loving spirit, the kind spirit, the longsuffering spirit, the charitable spirit... that is not covered in the questions at all, and why? Because it is immaterial to the men who write the questions, who keep those who live the spirit of the law out of the temple if they happen to interpret the WoW differently than the current leadership.

If it was about the spirit, there would only be two questions: Do you love Christ more than you love yourself?

If you love him, keep his commandments (Laws, not all of which are simply defined)

No one does this, Gaz. Not even the Brethren... maybe especially not the Brethren. The temples would be empty if keeping all the commandments was the deal breaker. It's possible to love Christ, to follow his gospel, to love others, without ever once paying a penny of tithing.

Too much is ignored in the TRI questions, and too much is emphasized that is not commandment level.

More than yourself implies setting aside personal views and desires for truth, or perhaps better atuneing oneself to the spirit might be a better way of putting it.

And which of the TRI questions, the way our leaders determine our worthiness to enter the temple, addresses this list?

Do you believe you are worthy to enter his temple?

Rarely

Never is the correct answer, Gaz. None are worthy to be where God may be. So the temples would be empty, without God's saving grace.

You're referencing uncanonized unauthorized myth, Gaz, as if it was truth. Caution is warrented.

Agreed, but as I stated (implied), much of what was in this text bears a familiar spirit.

Until it's canonized, the familiar spirit may indeed be more familiar than you realize. The Brethren serve a purpose in matters like this: they alone can determine if something is scripture or not. And they have not put this book up for canonization, so the "familiar" spirit may simply be the one who would really like to lead you astray.

What is your idea of heaven? After you spend a few years riding raindrops and whatnot. (Not being snarky there, that actually sounds quite fun)

We aren't talking about heaven here. We're talking about the CK, a place I am determined to avoid at all costs.

Shades,

Do celestialized beings feel fear?

In the pre-mortal world Adam possesed th epower and authority to assist in the shaping of this world. He commanded elements, and they obeyed him. He possesed the Light of Christ to such a degree in his spiritual form that he was like unto God himself, being second only to the Savior.

This comparison to a guardian angel might make better use of the word awe, although this may be almost the same terminology.

Beastie,

However, in retrospect, I think there are some problems with this construct. For one thing, God is able to somehow neutralize this effect when he wants to. God did "something" to Joseph Smith in order to make Joseph Smith to be able to tolerate being in his presence for the First Vision - otherwise he would have died. So God is apparently able and willing to neutralize this effect in order to allow lesser beings to withstand his presence. So what can't a loving Father neutralize this effect so that he can still see his terrestrial and telestial offspring in the next life?

There are a few passages in the scriptures that talk about being in the presence of God.

In the case of Moses, we have his comparison between Satan and God, where he states that he had to be transfigured in order to withstand the Lords presence, but that he could see Lucifer with his natural eyes, and therefore would not worship or obey him.

In Abrahams case he was taken spiritually out of his body for his theophany. His testimony states that his mortal form has begun to rot by the time he returned and that the Savior had to restore it in order for him to return to it.

Mary the mother of God told the disciples that she went through a washing and annointing and a full change of clothes before she was taken into the presence of the Father to share a meal with him.

In the case of Christs 40 day ministry after his resurrection, he no doubt did as you describe, condescending his glory in order to abide with his Apostles and teach them all that they needed to know in order to establish the church at that time.

In order to answer your more pointed question though, we need to think about the ultimate goal of the resurrection. We are intended to stand on our own. Why would God need to condescend in the world to come in order to be with us? We would not want him to, he lives in an entirely diferent culture than those who are living in the other kingdoms. It would bring not only discomfort and awkwardness, but grief over our choices and misery over our guilt of what could have been.