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On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:51 am
by _Valentinus
I'm an Evangelical Christian born to a Mormon mother and an Atheist father. I never really subscribed to either of their religions. However, I am interested in Mormon theology, doctrine and history. I look forward to learning from you all.

On with the show...

To Her We Shall Return by Rabbi Jill Hammer, PhD:

In the past twenty years, something has changed. For Jewish men and women who seek communion with feminine divinity, the word Goddess is no longer off-limits. Jewish scholars such as Susan Ackerman and Daniel Dever have reexamined text and archaeology and learned that our Israelite ancestors spent more time with goddesses than the Bible ever let on. Scholars and spiritual seekers such as Raphael Patae, Lynn Gottlieb, and Jenny Kien have shown the connections between the earliest goddesses and the images of the Divine Feminine we find in the Talmud and the Zohar. In recent years, books, discussion lists, websites, and spiritual communities that speak of the Jewish Goddess have proliferated in the United States, Europe, and Israel.


What are your thoughts on Lady Wisdom? From Proverbs 8:

The Blessings of Wisdom

8 Does not wisdom call? Does not munderstanding raise her voice?

2 On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand;

3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:

4 “To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the children of man.

5 O simple ones, learn prudence; O fools, learn sense.

6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right,

7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them.

9 They are all straight to him who understands, and right to those who find knowledge.

10 Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold,

11 for wisdom is better than jewels, and ball that you may desire cannot compare with her.

12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion.

13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.

14 I have counsel and sound wisdom; I have insight; I have strength.

15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

16 by me princes rule, and nobles, all who govern justly.

17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.

19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than rchoice silver.

20 I walk in the way of righteousness, in the paths of justice,

21 granting an inheritance to those who love me, and filling their treasuries.

22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth,

26 before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world.

27 When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,

29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

30 then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,

31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man.

32 “And now, O sons, listen to me: blessed are those who keep my ways.

33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.

34 Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors.

35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord,

36 but he who fails to find me injures himself; all who hate me love death.”


One thing that sounds clear to me is that Lady Wisdom does not share the same persona as the Mormon Heavenly Mother. Neither does she do justice for the ideas of Hokma in early Judaism and Christianity. Joseph Smith never said anything profound about her. The reported vision he experienced of Her, while in the company of Zebedee Coltrin and Sidney Rigdon, is debatable.

Your thoughts? Impressions?

I have more to write but will take the time to do more LDS research on the subject.

Valentinus

Re: On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:52 pm
by _truth dancer
Hi V... welcome to the board.

The "Mormon heavenly mother" is really a phrase referring to God's harem of Goddesses; There is no teaching of which I am aware concerning the abilities, character, gifts, ideas, ideals, let alone wisdom, care, concern, or love of the heavenly mothers. With the exception of these women bringing forth spirit children, they are virtually absent from Mormon theology.

in my opinion, in no way is the MHM (smile) the same as the "'Divine Feminine" spoken of in myth as God's equal partner.


~td~

Re: On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:04 am
by _moksha
In religions of the past that embraced polytheism, goddesses abounded and priestesses flourished. In some religious rites, women were indispensable. In monotheistic religions, until the twentieth century, women were sidelined.

Re: On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:38 pm
by _The Nehor
truth dancer wrote: in my opinion, in no way is the MHM (smile) the same as the "'Divine Feminine" spoken of in myth as God's equal partner.


Except everything the LDS teach about the eternal glory and splendor exalted women enjoy. Other then that, nothing. :rolleyes:

Re: On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:14 pm
by _Valentinus
The Nehor wrote:
truth dancer wrote: in my opinion, in no way is the MHM (smile) the same as the "'Divine Feminine" spoken of in myth as God's equal partner.


Except everything the LDS teach about the eternal glory and splendor exalted women enjoy. Other then that, nothing. :rolleyes:


What I'm trying to say is that the LDS have no doctrine to compare their idea of Heavenly Mother with ancient Jewish and Christian tradition. Joseph Smith vision is questionable at best and not used for validation of her existence.

Valentinus

Re: On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:25 pm
by _Valentinus
moksha wrote:In religions of the past that embraced polytheism, goddesses abounded and priestesses flourished. In some religious rites, women were indispensable. In monotheistic religions, until the twentieth century, women were sidelined.


I see this as a problem within Mormonism. Why would Joseph Smith ordain women to priesthood only to have BY suspend and stop it? Oddly, there is a letter that talks about womens rights within priesthood. In fact, it was written by the FP with Joseph F. Smith as president.

Here is the letter. I had to copy and paste it.

To the Presidents of Stakes and Bishops of wards:-

Questions are frequently asked in regard to washing and anointing
our sisters preparatory to their confinement. In a circular issued by the leading sisters of the Relief Society a number of questions on this
matter have been answered and correct instructions given, but
notwithstanding this having been done, we judge from the contents of
letters received by us that there exists some uncertainty as to the
proper persons to engage in this administration; we have therefore
considered it necessary to answer some of these questions, and give
such explanations as will place this matter in the right light. We quote
some of these questions and give our answers:

1. Is it necessary for one or more sisters to be set apart to wash and
anoint the sick?

2. Should it be done under the direction of the Relief Society?

Answer: Any good sister, full of faith in God and in the efficacy of
prayer may officiate. It is therefore not necessary for anyone to be set
apart for this purpose, or that it should be done exclusively under the
direction of the Relief Society

3. Must the sister officiating be a member of the Relief Society?

Answer: It is conceded that most of our sisters, qualified to perform
this service and gifted with the spirit of healing and the power to
inspire faith in the sick, belong to the Relief Society, but if the sick
should desire to have some good sister who is not a member of the
Relief Society administer to her, that sister had the right to so administer.

4. Have the sisters the right to administer to the sick children?

Answer: yes: they have the same right to administer to sick children
as to adults, and may anoint and lay hands upon them in faith.

5. Should the administering and anointing be sealed?

Answer: It is proper for sisters to lay on hands, using a few simple
words, avoiding the terms employed in the temple, and instead of
using the word "seal" use the word "confirm."

6. Have the sisters a right to seal the washing and anointing, using
no authority, but doing it in the name of Jesus Christ, or should men
holding the priesthood be called in?

Answer: The sisters have the privilege of laying their hands on the
head of the person for whom they are officiating, and confirming and
anointing in the spirit of invocation. The Lord has heard and answered the prayers of sisters in these administrations many times. It should, however, always be remembered that the command of the Lord is to call in the elders to administer to the sick, and when they can be called in, they should be asked to anoint the sick or seal the anointing.

7. Are sisters who have not received their endowments competent
to wash and anoint sisters previous to confinement?

Answer: It must always be borne in mind that this administering to
the sick by the sister is in no sense a temple ordnance, and no one is
allowed to use the words learned in the temple in washing and
anointing the sick. Sisters who have had their endowments have received instructions and blessings which tend to give them stronger
faith and especially qualify them to officiate in this sacred work; but
there are good faithful sisters, who through circumstances have not received their endowments, and yet are full of faith and have had much success in ministering to the sick, who should not be forbidden to act, if desired to do so by our sisters.

In conclusion we have to say that in all sacred functions performed
by our sisters there should be perfect harmony between them and the
Bishop, who has the direction of all matters pertaining to the Church
in his ward.

Your brethren,
Joseph F. Smith,
Anthon H. Lund.
Charles W. Penrose.
First Presidency


Valentinus

Re: On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:40 pm
by _Valentinus
truth dancer wrote:Hi V... welcome to the board.

The "Mormon heavenly mother" is really a phrase referring to God's harem of Goddesses; There is no teaching of which I am aware concerning the abilities, character, gifts, ideas, ideals, let alone wisdom, care, concern, or love of the heavenly mothers. With the exception of these women bringing forth spirit children, they are virtually absent from Mormon theology.

in my opinion, in no way is the MHM (smile) the same as the "'Divine Feminine" spoken of in myth as God's equal partner.


~td~


I agree that they are not the same. But the 'myth' is worth more observation and study than we may think. If pre-Hebrew Bible Jews were seeking communion with Her then it is definitely worth a look at. Just because male authoritarian so-called orthodox Jews came along and denigrated Her is not cause enough.

Valentinus

Re: On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:19 pm
by _truth dancer
Hi V,

A book you may enjoy... Jesus and the Lost Goddess, by Freke and Gandy!

Drawing on modern scholarship, the authors of the international bestseller The Jesus Mysteries decode the secret teachings of the original Christians for the first time in almost two millennia and theorize about who the original Christians really were and what they actually taught. In addition, the book explores the many myths of Jesus and the Goddess and unlocks the lost secret teachings of Christian mysticism, which promise happiness and immortality to those who attain the state of Gnosis, or enlightenment. This daring and controversial book recovers the ancient wisdom of the original Christians and demonstrates its relevance to us today.


~td~

Re: On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:12 pm
by _The Nehor
truth dancer wrote:Hi V,

A book you may enjoy... Jesus and the Lost Goddess, by Freke and Gandy!

Drawing on modern scholarship, the authors of the international bestseller The Jesus Mysteries decode the secret teachings of the original Christians for the first time in almost two millennia and theorize about who the original Christians really were and what they actually taught. In addition, the book explores the many myths of Jesus and the Goddess and unlocks the lost secret teachings of Christian mysticism, which promise happiness and immortality to those who attain the state of Gnosis, or enlightenment. This daring and controversial book recovers the ancient wisdom of the original Christians and demonstrates its relevance to us today.


~td~


Quite a dramatic intro to basically say, "This book is about Gnosticism."

Re: On Lady Wisdom

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:22 am
by _RockSlider
for what it's worth,

In Jewish Kabbalah ... Wisdom (Chokhman or Abba) is a male attribute. Binah (understanding) is the femine Sephirah of this level.