Mormons and the Gospel of Gain...

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_Daheshist
_Emeritus
Posts: 702
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:17 am

Mormons and the Gospel of Gain...

Post by _Daheshist »

When I was a Mormon I spent time attending "affluent" Wards in Bellevue Washington, Santa Monica and Ensino California, and Mesa Arizona. On my mission, I had to attended very affluent Wards in Morgan Hill, Los Gatos, San Jose, and San Francisco California. The Mormons who attended these Wards believed that the "purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" was to attain material wealth/earthly success as well as Godhood. They were, generally speaking, very selfish, very arrogant, ego-centric, money-loving, outwardly self-righteous, but privately sexually immoral. Most of them truly "despised the poor" (they did). They were cliquish, condescending, holier-than-thou, and smooth-faced. Generally speaking. About, about 10% of them would be what I would call "pure-in-heart".

Most of these affluent Mormons looked upon others in what I call "The Verticle Scale". In other words, everyone who approached them, or they approached, they put on a Verticle Scale. You were either their equal, or inferior. If an "inferior" then the Golden Rule did not apply to "YOU". You had to show them humble defference, and if they showed you condescending niceties (like saying "How are you?"), they thought they were doing YOU a favor!

Myself, I always believed in the "Horizontal Scale" with others; that you treat ALL others with respect, until they show you disrespect, then I was no longer obligated to show them respect. THEY, on the other hand, believed that if I was not their "equal" (and I NEVER was), then it did not matter how they treated me. The "Golden Rule" did not apply to "inferiors".

Being around affluent Mormons made me finally understand HOW the white people of the South were before the 1970s when healthy young white men expected old unhealthy black women to give up their seats on the bus. Affluent Mormons had that same sort of ABSOLUTE ARROGANCE. They still do.

And, of course, at that time, the Church was NOT teaching against that. The Church was teaching: "If you go to your meetings and obey your leaders and pay your tithing then you'll be BLESSED". By "blessed" it means "stuff"; promotions at work, safety in travel, divine healing. The Gurus of India tell their followers the same thing: Give the elephant and monkey gods flowers and food, and GIVE US YOUR MONEY, and you'll be BLESSED (i.e. get stuff) from the gods. I came to realize that the Mormons were NO DIFFERENT than the Hindus of India! They were exactly the same!

The Mormon thinks: "Well, this Church MUST be true! Look at how the Lord has blessed me! I have a sexy wife, a nice car, job promotions, a good business, healthy children! Wow! It MUST be true!"

The Hindu thinks: "Well, the Ganesh Temple must be true! Look at how Lord Ganesh [the elephant-headed god] has blessed me! I have a sexy wife, a nice car, a good business, healthy children! Wow! It MUST be true!"

Both are self-deluded. I knew that material success is NO SIGN of having a true religion. If it was, we should all be Jews and curse Jesus daily, because the Jews are most successful of any one group!

WHY has God "blessed" a people with so much material success, when in fact Jews REJECT Jesus as the Messiah????

The fact is: The Gospel of Jesus Christ, what He actually PREACHED, was NOTHING about earthly material success! Nothing! In fact, Jesus preached the EXACT OPPOSITE!

But, how could I convince Mormons of that when their own "inspired leaders" taught them that material success WAS a "blessing" of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Back in 1995, I was considering returning to the Church. I considered Joseph Smith a "fallen prophet"; not a false one. I thought that I could "change from within"; meaning that if I wrote books and articles, and Mormons read them, it would somehow, eventually, perhaps over decades, "change" Mormon culture from one of total hypocrisy into what it should be. I wrote a number of articles, and, at great expense to myself, mailed them to Institute and Seminary teachers all around Utah, Idaho, and Arizona. My thought was, if I could "change the thinking" of CES teachers, then they would "teach" differently, and eventually "change the thinking" of young Mormons, and eventually these young Mormons would "change the thinking" of the Church.

Boy....was I STUPID (yes, even more so than now)! :rolleyes:

Here is what I wrote and mailed out in 1995, when I was considering returning to the Church (I never did):


Dear Seminary Teacher/Institute Instructor,

What I call "The Gospel of Gain" has replaced the Gospel of Jesus Christ in many affluent Wards in the Church. The Gospel of Gain is basically this:

*The purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to make us successful in this life and the next; to get us blessing of health and wealth in this life, and to become Gods and Goddesses in the next.

That is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

The Gospel of Jesus Christ promises NO RICHES OR WEALTH or even HEALTH in this life. Jesus said:

"In the world ye shall have tribulation." (John 16:33)

He also said: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matt. 19:24)

"Blessed are the poor who are pure in heart...for they shall see the kingdom of God." (D&C 56:18)

The "good news" of Jesus Christ, the "good news" that He preached was "good news unto the poor"! The Pharisees and Sadducees had taught the people that wealth was a "sign" of righteousness (a doctrine believed today by most affluent Latter-day Saints); a "sign" that the LORD had "blessed" you. It logically followed that the poor were dispised because it was thought "they weren't blessed" and therefore they were UNrighteous!

Jesus came and said just the opposite. He said the POOR were blessed, and the RICH would NOT get into heaven?

Why? Because riches expand the EGO, and a HUGE EGO stopped one from Heaven just as a camel could not get through the eye of a needle.

Mormon culture has said that if you are active in Church the LORD will give you "blessings" (i.e. material success, health, attractive spouse). Most Latter-day Saints are told this from birth. But, The Book of Mormon nor the Gospels teach this!

A person DOES NOT NEED the Church in order to become materially successful, to find an attractive spouse, nor to have healthy well-behaved children. It is a "MYTH". It is a false tradition.

I know that most of you were raised to believe that if you are active in the Church and "worthy" you will get earthly "blessings". But that is a false tradition; a tradition that sends false singles, false expectations, and ultimately leads to MAMMON WORSHIP.

Many Members of the Church today worship MAMMON (earthly riches). They do. I'll give you an example of one such man.

Incident at the Lake Osewgo Young Adult Home Evening in 1993

I remember an incident back in 1993, when I lived in Vancouver, Washington. I had heard about a Young Adult Home Evening at a young adult ward on a Monday night in Lake Oswego, just outside of Portland. Not having anything to do that Monday evening, I decided to attend. Instead of a speaker, or an activity, somebody brought a tape. It was a "motivational" tape, the speaker, a motivational speaker. All he talked about was how to "become wealthy". After it was over, the person who brought the video, the 1st counselor in the Young Adult Ward bishopric, a man about 47 years old, about 5'9", but was a MASSIVE chest and very powerful arms, asked various young adults how they liked the tape. All of them said, "Wow! I LOVED it!" He smiled and was pleased. As I walked outside and started down the hall, he came up beside me and asked, "How did you like the video?" I replied, "I didn't care for it." He looked shocked. The smile went off his face, and he asked my why I thought that way. I said to him something like, "I think a Home Evening should be a spiritual event where the Gospel is preached, not something about success and wealth and how to achieve it!" He looked at me and half-way smiled and said, "Well, that's what the Gospel IS ALL ABOUT isn't it? How to become a success in life!" I said, "No, it's not!"

He looked at me like I'd spit on his mother! He took one of his MASSIVE arms and SLAMMED me against the white cool wall of the Chapel hallway; pinning me with his arm. He pressed his face against mine and said, "Now WAIT A MINUTE!!!! WAIT A MINUTE!!!! How DARE you say that to ME!!!!"

I literally had to calm him down. He finally released me, and, very cordially, said, "Can I speak with you outside for a second?" I went out with him. As soon as we were outside he got within a half-inch of me, and looked up and said, "I should KICK YOUR ASS RIGHT HERE! I should KICK YOUR PUNK ASS RIGHT HERE! You punks don't scare me! You punks don't scare me!" At the time I was about 185 pounds, with "the arms of a girl" (as my friends used to say). Again, I had to calm him down.

And we had a "talk". He believed that the very PURPOSE of the Gospel was to "become a success" (i.e. to achieve wealth and success in this life and become a God in the next). I told him that I believed the purpose of the Gospel was to teach us how to treat others, to love others. I told him the Gospel meant the "good news" that Jesus Christ had come and paid for our sins. That is what "Gott-Spel" (Anglo-Saxon for Good News) meant. It was about Jesus and what He did for us; not about us becoming a success. I gave him the example of the Jews in America. They thought Jesus was a FALSE Christ. Yet, were not most of them successful? Did they not achieve material wealth WITHOUT the "Gospel" (as he understood it)? After I said that he got an expression on his face like he suddenly realized something he had never thought of before.

Later, I wrote a note to the bishop of that ward, suggesting that he say something about this incident. I tried to speak with him (the bishop of that YSA ward) a number of times, but he'd say, "I'm too busy. I've got too many Courts!" I wrote a note and said, "Perhaps you would not have so many Courts if your ward Members were told to 'repent!" I soon saw him. He put his arm around me and said, "Boy, if I preached Hell-fire and brimestone, nobody would come to Church!" I replied, "But at least they might repent!" He DISPISED me from that day on, and, whenever he saw me, would say, "How are you doing ___BOY___?"

Anyway, this is just another example (and I have HUNDREDS) of Mormons worshipping "Success" and $$$. Go to any affluent ward, and you'll never, if ever, hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached. You'll hear the Gospel of Gain, over and over and over and over and over again.

For most Mormons born into affluent wards, they are NEVER taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ (unless they independently read The Book of Mormon or the New Testament or go on a mission). They are raised to believe that the Gospel is about "wealth, success, achieving goals, etc". Many of these people DESPISE THE POOR! I know, I attended some of these wards while I was poor. Many wouldn't even talk to me.

This problem isn't so bad in affluent wards in Utah, but go to affluent wards in California, or Mesa Arizona, or affluent wards in the Pacific Northwest. You'll sit in Church, and you can FEEL the darkness surrounding you.

The Gospel of Gain has KILLED the Spirit in these wards. Perhaps this is why the Brethren are so concerned; having such a difficult time with men who cheat on their wives, or women marrying rich Gentile men, or sexual sin among youth. They aren't being taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Young Mormons born into affluent wards are NEVER told about Hell! Never! Many of them despise the poor just as their grandfathers or greatgrandfathers dispised "Negroes" or others they thought "inferior" to themselves. Their greatgrandfathers were RACISTS. But they are not "racists". That's not "politically-correct". They are ELITISTS today. They're the same kind of people, but instead of racism they believe in elitism. Many who attend BYU KNOW how these wealthy LDS youth from California and Arizona (and Oregon and Washington) are:
*Braggarts
*Self-centered
*Narcissistic
*Ego-driven
*Immoral
*Dishonest
*Elitist
*Despisers of the Poor

They are, in almost all ways, JUST LIKE the Nephites before they were UTTERLY destroyed. In many, MANY, affluent Wards in the U.S., the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been COMPLETELY replaced by the Gospel of Gain. And the "fruits" are now coming into fruition.

To Prosper in the Land

Many Members think that Church activity promises them wealth. Does not The Book of Mormon say that if we obey the LORD and His servants we shall "prosper in the land"?

It does, but in Joseph Smith's day "prosper" did not mean wealth! Here are a few examples of how the word was used when The Book of Mormon was translated:

Lucy Mack Smith wrote to Oliver Cowdery:

"Samuel remained with his brother untill july or August he then went back to the State of New York and brought us news of their success and prosperity. This roused in Martin Harris a great desire to go down to Penn to see how they were prospering for himself aas he was more than commonly interested in the matter." (Biographical Sketches, p.118)

In fact, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were poorer than Church mice (i.e. churches are clean and have no food and the mice starv for want of food) when they were working on The Book of Mormon translation in Harmony, Pennsylvania! What did Lucy mean by "success" and "prospering"? Certainly NOT they were getting wealthy!

Here is another example: Joseph Smith writes:

"I arrived at home on Sunn morn. the 4th after a prosperous journey...." (Letter of Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdery, Oct. 22nd, 1829, LDS Church Archives)

Did Joseph Smith make a lot of money on that journey! No! He was poor...poorer than poor!

In Joseph Smith's time to "prosper" and "prosperity" did NOT mean "to become rich/wealthy" as it means today! The word "prosper" and "prosperity" were the opposite of "adverse" and "adversity". To "prosper" meant you had no adversity, and had nothing to do with money or wealth or position; as many Members of the Church think today.

The Prophet Mormon in The Book of Mormon, has a prophetic vision of the "Mormons" of the latter-days. He addresses them, saying:

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?” (Mormon 8: 35-39)
This is a "FIT" discription of many affluent Wards, especially in California and Arizona! I know, I've belonged to such Wards where "wealth" and earthly accomplishment are seen as "signs" that one has been "blessed" by God, and poverty or a lowly status in the things of the world is seen as a "sign" one is has been "cursed" by God (not blessed), and that one is leading a very "unworthy" life engrossed in secret unrepentant sins. Often, the exact opposite is true! Truly, the poor are DESPISED by many of the more aflluent Members of the Church, who have been taught in their Wards since birth, and who believe that the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" is a "way" to "make one a success in life".
That is NOT the purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

But you cannot tell these people that, or they'll want to kill you.

Please....let your students KNOW that there is no promise of wealth/prosperity in the Book of Mormon, which is a fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! The term "Prosperity" in the Book of Mormon means what it meant in Joseph Smith's day, NOT OUR DAY, and it meant the opposite of adversity. It did NOT mean the "opposite of poverty" as it means today!

Let them KNOW that, or some of them will continue to believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is about how "to succeed in life". And it is NOT about that! It isn't about aquiring wealth in this life, but treasures in heaven!

It is my hope that you can do as Jesus did. While these Mormon youth are promised "earthly goodies" on Sunday, during the week you tell them just the opposite; that we should store up treasures in heaven, and that riches are not a "sign" of being blessed, but rather a hindrance to entering the Celestial Kingdom. That is what Jesus actually taught, and was one of the main teachings of His Gospel! Today, many in the Church teach the exact opposite under the name of the "Mormon Philosophy"; which is a Philosophy of Men, mingled with Scripture.
_Yoda

Re: Mormons and the Gospel of Gain...

Post by _Yoda »

First of all....I have a very hard time believing your story about the incident at the Young Adult Family Home Evening. Why would a mature man who was giving a motivational speech to a youth group physically attack someone half his size without being provoked?

Also...if he was being that loud and that physical, why didn't someone else witness what happened? Why didn't you go to the police? You pussy-footed around and "wrote a note" to the bishop? Sorry...but your personal well-being was threatened. If what you say really happened, then this guy had the potential of threatening others who disagreed with him as well, and was extremely unstable. He certainly had no business giving presentations to the public.

You seem to consistently paint yourself as the victim in all of these situations you relate. Mysteriously, an entire ward, or congregation snubs you and leaves you out of their clique. Are you telling me that you had absolutely no friends in any of these situations?

Frankly, if you came across to these people as abrasive and holier-than-thou as you have here, I can't really blame them for not wanting to deal with you.

You seem to be the one "looking down your nose" at others who don't see things the way you see them. You throw out multiple posts, always "shouting". You don't invite discussion. You categorize everyone, basically telling all of us who are still members of the Church that we are stupid, or missing something, if we don't see things the way you see them.

Question---Did you receive any type of response from these seminary and/or institute teachers you sent this letter out to?

How can you be so sure that these teachers aren't teaching things properly?

You seem to, once again, be jumping to a lot of conclusions. Just because you had a bad experience in a couple of affluent wards does not mean that the Church is teaching this "gospel of gain" across the board. All your experience means is that there are groups of people who are not living what they are taught, and are justifying it.
_Daheshist
_Emeritus
Posts: 702
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Mormons and the Gospel of Gain...

Post by _Daheshist »

LIZ: First of all....I have a very hard time believing your story about the incident at the Young Adult Family Home Evening. Why would a mature man who was giving a motivational speech to a youth group physically attack someone half his size without being provoked?

DAHESHIST: He was not giving a motivational speech. He showed a video from a motivational speaker who gave a speech on "Think and Grow Rich". In the hall he asked me, "How did you like the video?" I said, "I didn't!" He looked SHOCKED, and said, "WHY NOT?" I said, "It wasn't about a Gospel subject". He said, "Well, it was about how to become a success in life, that's what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about isn't it?" I said, "No, it's not!" HE THEN used his HUGE arm and brased me against the wall and got his face one inch from mine. The rest is all true too!

LIZ: Also...if he was being that loud and that physical, why didn't someone else witness what happened? Why didn't you go to the police? You pussy-footed around and "wrote a note" to the bishop? Sorry...but your personal well-being was threatened. If what you say really happened, then this guy had the potential of threatening others who disagreed with him as well, and was extremely unstable. He certainly had no business giving presentations to the public.

DAHESHIST: There was NOBODY in the Hall when he accosted me. When another person came out of the room into the hall he let me go and said "very sweetly": "Hay, can I speak with you outside for a sec?" When we got outside, away from any witness, he was in my face again making physical threats. WHAT would I tell police? He got in my face? He braced me against a wall? Had he actually HIT me, yes, I would've called police. You should know that many Mormon women report to their bishops that their husbands are "sweetness and light" at Church, but as soon as he gets them away from other people he becomes "A MONSTER". I'm sure this guy was one of those. Don't ASSUME that Mormon men who are nice and gentle at Church (where others can see him) are the same at home of when they are away from the eyes of their peers.

LIZ: You seem to consistently paint yourself as the victim in all of these situations you relate. Mysteriously, an entire ward, or congregation snubs you and leaves you out of their clique. Are you telling me that you had absolutely no friends in any of these situations?

DAHESHIST: In ALL the situations I've shared in which I was a victim, I WAS! I was snubbed by many people in affluent wards merely because I was poor. No other reason. I was often asked to invest in A.L. Williams or Amway or some new "Mormon" get rich quick thing, and when I politely said "No thanks" I was shunned by them completely. YES....large polynesian Mormons DID threaten my life and throw rocks or cement at me or grabbed by junk when I protested and showed them ONLY pure respect. Those things happened. YES, I was spit at. YES, Mormon bishops called me a "liar" when I told them that my roommates were boffing all sorts of Mormon girls. And what I told them was 100% truth! I have had at least 2 bishops MOCK me by bulging their eyes and wagging their heads, and have at least 5 or 6 large Mormon men threaten me; merely because I told them something they DID NOT LIKE. Yes, all these happened exactly as I have told you.

LIZ: Frankly, if you came across to these people as abrasive and holier-than-thou as you have here, I can't really blame them for not wanting to deal with you.

DAHESHIST: Abrasive sometimes, but holier-than-thou! NO MA'AM. That is how they appeared to ME most of the time.

LIZ: You seem to be the one "looking down your nose" at others who don't see things the way you see them.

DAHESHIST: Looking down their nose is how most affluent Mormons did to me for many years, over and over again.

I understand WHY you don't believe me:

Mormons: "Truth" is anything they WANT to believe.

Me: "Truth" is what "is"; not necessarily what I want to believe.

LIZ: You throw out multiple posts, always "shouting". You don't invite discussion. You categorize everyone, basically telling all of us who are still members of the Church that we are stupid, or missing something, if we don't see things the way you see them.

DAHESHIST: Mormons are not "stupid" but most of them are "ignorant"; meaning they IGNORE any fact or truth they don't fancy.

Question---Did you receive any type of response from these seminary and/or institute teachers you sent this letter out to?

DAHESHIST: I got only a few letters; maybe 8 or 9. Most said, "Don't send us anything more" but a few said, "Good article. I agree with you completely!"

LIZ: How can you be so sure that these teachers aren't teaching things properly?

DAHESHIST: All I can do is go on what I've observed about Mormons (especially affluent ones) for the last 25 years; that MOST of them believe that the purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to become rich/wealthy in this life, and a God/Goddess in the next. NO, the Gospel of Jesus is NOT about becoming rich in this life! And I am not SHOUTING! I use CAPITALS for emphasis only. I don't believe I am wrong about Mormons. I am, unfortunately, too "right" about them. Liz, you are a "New Order Mormon". I've met lots of "Sunstone Mormons". And I've discovered one thing: New Order Mormons and Sunstone Mormons think they are much more "enlightened" than True Believing Mormons. But, you're not. You are just like the TBMs: "Whatever I want to believe....is true. Whatever I don't want to believe...is a lie" Well, Liz, reality just ain't according to our wants, likes, dislikes, fancies. "Truth" is truth, and has nothing to do with what we "want" to believe or not.
_MsJack
_Emeritus
Posts: 4375
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:06 am

Re: Mormons and the Gospel of Gain...

Post by _MsJack »

Valiant effort, Liz, but it doesn't look like you're getting anywhere.

by the way, I ♥ the red hair.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_Yoda

Re: Mormons and the Gospel of Gain...

Post by _Yoda »

Bridget Jack Meyers wrote:Valiant effort, Liz, but it doesn't look like you're getting anywhere.

by the way, I ♥ the red hair.


Thanks! :mrgreen: My family hates the red hair, but my friends and everyone at work loves it. LOL

As far as the OP....Yeah...I thought I would give it a shot. I won't waste my time again.
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Re: Mormons and the Gospel of Gain...

Post by _The Nehor »

Daheshist wrote:When I was a Mormon I spent time attending "affluent" Wards in Bellevue Washington, Santa Monica and Ensino California, and Mesa Arizona. On my mission, I had to attended very affluent Wards in Morgan Hill, Los Gatos, San Jose, and San Francisco California. The Mormons who attended these Wards believed that the "purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" was to attain material wealth/earthly success as well as Godhood. They were, generally speaking, very selfish, very arrogant, ego-centric, money-loving, outwardly self-righteous, but privately sexually immoral. Most of them truly "despised the poor" (they did). They were cliquish, condescending, holier-than-thou, and smooth-faced. Generally speaking. About, about 10% of them would be what I would call "pure-in-heart".


I'm glad that you're free of class envy.

Most of these affluent Mormons looked upon others in what I call "The Verticle Scale". In other words, everyone who approached them, or they approached, they put on a Verticle Scale. You were either their equal, or inferior. If an "inferior" then the Golden Rule did not apply to "YOU". You had to show them humble defference, and if they showed you condescending niceties (like saying "How are you?"), they thought they were doing YOU a favor!


Normally I don't consider saying, "How are you?" is some kind of favor. If it were you, I might. If I did, I might be more likely to have my name given to Jihadists or my family harassed. That being said, I come from a family of millionaires and don't see that condescension occur generally in any wards I've
attended (affluent or not). I have seen cases of pride and ego but I don't think the rich suffer from it more then any other social class in the Church.

Myself, I always believed in the "Horizontal Scale" with others; that you treat ALL others with respect, until they show you disrespect, then I was no longer obligated to show them respect. THEY, on the other hand, believed that if I was not their "equal" (and I NEVER was), then it did not matter how they treated me. The "Golden Rule" did not apply to "inferiors".


Considering what you seem to class as disrespect (not giving you money) I can see how this principle has led you to where you are today.

Being around affluent Mormons made me finally understand HOW the white people of the South were before the 1970s when healthy young white men expected old unhealthy black women to give up their seats on the bus. Affluent Mormons had that same sort of ABSOLUTE ARROGANCE. They still do.


As one of those wealthy Mormons who helped an old black lady mow her lawn and take care of her house every month growing up I resent your characterization.

And, of course, at that time, the Church was NOT teaching against that. The Church was teaching: "If you go to your meetings and obey your leaders and pay your tithing then you'll be BLESSED". By "blessed" it means "stuff"; promotions at work, safety in travel, divine healing. The Gurus of India tell their followers the same thing: Give the elephant and monkey gods flowers and food, and GIVE US YOUR MONEY, and you'll be BLESSED (i.e. get stuff) from the gods. I came to realize that the Mormons were NO DIFFERENT than the Hindus of India! They were exactly the same!


No, they weren't. There has been a lot of prosperity gospel taught in the world.....not generally from us.

The Mormon thinks: "Well, this Church MUST be true! Look at how the Lord has blessed me! I have a sexy wife, a nice car, job promotions, a good business, healthy children! Wow! It MUST be true!"


Yes, that is exactly why they believe it (sarcasm). You need to learn to control your envy.

The Hindu thinks: "Well, the Ganesh Temple must be true! Look at how Lord Ganesh [the elephant-headed god] has blessed me! I have a sexy wife, a nice car, a good business, healthy children! Wow! It MUST be true!"


Okay, add Hindus to the list of those you shouldn't associate with. I resent your characterization on their behalf.

Both are self-deluded. I knew that material success is NO SIGN of having a true religion. If it was, we should all be Jews and curse Jesus daily, because the Jews are most successful of any one group!


What? Are you a Zionist conspiracy nut too? If being the victim of racism and suffering vitriolic hate from many quarter for three millenia and being the only ethnic group to suffer genocide at the hands of a modernized nation is success.....what is failure?

WHY has God "blessed" a people with so much material success, when in fact Jews REJECT Jesus as the Messiah????


Because he wanted to and he has not forgotten his covenant people.

The fact is: The Gospel of Jesus Christ, what He actually PREACHED, was NOTHING about earthly material success! Nothing! In fact, Jesus preached the EXACT OPPOSITE!


No, he didn't teach prosperity or voluntary poverty. Try again.

But, how could I convince Mormons of that when their own "inspired leaders" taught them that material success WAS a "blessing" of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?


You can't convince Mormons because you're an angry, bitter, sad, unhappy little man. It has nothing to do with "inspired leaders" who have not taught the prosperity gospel.

Back in 1995, I was considering returning to the Church. I considered Joseph Smith a "fallen prophet"; not a false one. I thought that I could "change from within"; meaning that if I wrote books and articles, and Mormons read them, it would somehow, eventually, perhaps over decades, "change" Mormon culture from one of total hypocrisy into what it should be. I wrote a number of articles, and, at great expense to myself, mailed them to Institute and Seminary teachers all around Utah, Idaho, and Arizona. My thought was, if I could "change the thinking" of CES teachers, then they would "teach" differently, and eventually "change the thinking" of young Mormons, and eventually these young Mormons would "change the thinking" of the Church.


HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Boy....was I STUPID (yes, even more so than now)! :rolleyes:


Here we are in total agreement.

Here is what I wrote and mailed out in 1995, when I was considering returning to the Church (I never did):


Dear Seminary Teacher/Institute Instructor,

What I call "The Gospel of Gain" has replaced the Gospel of Jesus Christ in many affluent Wards in the Church. The Gospel of Gain is basically this:

*The purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to make us successful in this life and the next; to get us blessing of health and wealth in this life, and to become Gods and Goddesses in the next.

That is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

The Gospel of Jesus Christ promises NO RICHES OR WEALTH or even HEALTH in this life. Jesus said:

"In the world ye shall have tribulation." (John 16:33)

He also said: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matt. 19:24)

"Blessed are the poor who are pure in heart...for they shall see the kingdom of God." (D&C 56:18)

The "good news" of Jesus Christ, the "good news" that He preached was "good news unto the poor"! The Pharisees and Sadducees had taught the people that wealth was a "sign" of righteousness (a doctrine believed today by most affluent Latter-day Saints); a "sign" that the LORD had "blessed" you. It logically followed that the poor were dispised because it was thought "they weren't blessed" and therefore they were UNrighteous!

Jesus came and said just the opposite. He said the POOR were blessed, and the RICH would NOT get into heaven?

Why? Because riches expand the EGO, and a HUGE EGO stopped one from Heaven just as a camel could not get through the eye of a needle.

Mormon culture has said that if you are active in Church the LORD will give you "blessings" (i.e. material success, health, attractive spouse). Most Latter-day Saints are told this from birth. But, The Book of Mormon nor the Gospels teach this!

A person DOES NOT NEED the Church in order to become materially successful, to find an attractive spouse, nor to have healthy well-behaved children. It is a "MYTH". It is a false tradition.

I know that most of you were raised to believe that if you are active in the Church and "worthy" you will get earthly "blessings". But that is a false tradition; a tradition that sends false singles, false expectations, and ultimately leads to MAMMON WORSHIP.

Many Members of the Church today worship MAMMON (earthly riches). They do. I'll give you an example of one such man.


And they ignored this. The nerve of them continuing to teach mammon....oh wait, they didn't.

Incident at the Lake Osewgo Young Adult Home Evening in 1993

I remember an incident back in 1993, when I lived in Vancouver, Washington. I had heard about a Young Adult Home Evening at a young adult ward on a Monday night in Lake Oswego, just outside of Portland. Not having anything to do that Monday evening, I decided to attend. Instead of a speaker, or an activity, somebody brought a tape. It was a "motivational" tape, the speaker, a motivational speaker. All he talked about was how to "become wealthy". After it was over, the person who brought the video, the 1st counselor in the Young Adult Ward bishopric, a man about 47 years old, about 5'9", but was a MASSIVE chest and very powerful arms, asked various young adults how they liked the tape. All of them said, "Wow! I LOVED it!" He smiled and was pleased. As I walked outside and started down the hall, he came up beside me and asked, "How did you like the video?" I replied, "I didn't care for it." He looked shocked. The smile went off his face, and he asked my why I thought that way. I said to him something like, "I think a Home Evening should be a spiritual event where the Gospel is preached, not something about success and wealth and how to achieve it!" He looked at me and half-way smiled and said, "Well, that's what the Gospel IS ALL ABOUT isn't it? How to become a success in life!" I said, "No, it's not!"

He looked at me like I'd spit on his mother! He took one of his MASSIVE arms and SLAMMED me against the white cool wall of the Chapel hallway; pinning me with his arm. He pressed his face against mine and said, "Now WAIT A MINUTE!!!! WAIT A MINUTE!!!! How DARE you say that to ME!!!!"


I don't believe a word of it. This guy attacked you at a major event....in a place where anyone could have seen it happening? Was the guy a moron?

I literally had to calm him down. He finally released me, and, very cordially, said, "Can I speak with you outside for a second?" I went out with him. As soon as we were outside he got within a half-inch of me, and looked up and said, "I should KICK YOUR ASS RIGHT HERE! I should KICK YOUR PUNK ASS RIGHT HERE! You punks don't scare me! You punks don't scare me!" At the time I was about 185 pounds, with "the arms of a girl" (as my friends used to say). Again, I had to calm him down.


So, you're claiming that the counselor in a Bishopric threatened to beat you up? LOL

And we had a "talk". He believed that the very PURPOSE of the Gospel was to "become a success" (i.e. to achieve wealth and success in this life and become a God in the next). I told him that I believed the purpose of the Gospel was to teach us how to treat others, to love others. I told him the Gospel meant the "good news" that Jesus Christ had come and paid for our sins. That is what "Gott-Spel" (Anglo-Saxon for Good News) meant. It was about Jesus and what He did for us; not about us becoming a success. I gave him the example of the Jews in America. They thought Jesus was a FALSE Christ. Yet, were not most of them successful? Did they not achieve material wealth WITHOUT the "Gospel" (as he understood it)? After I said that he got an expression on his face like he suddenly realized something he had never thought of before.


Still not buying it. This angry vengeful violent person suddenly melts under your brilliant exegesis of scripture? Uh-uh.

Later, I wrote a note to the bishop of that ward, suggesting that he say something about this incident. I tried to speak with him (the bishop of that YSA ward) a number of times, but he'd say, "I'm too busy. I've got too many Courts!" I wrote a note and said, "Perhaps you would not have so many Courts if your ward Members were told to 'repent!" I soon saw him. He put his arm around me and said, "Boy, if I preached Hell-fire and brimestone, nobody would come to Church!" I replied, "But at least they might repent!" He DISPISED me from that day on, and, whenever he saw me, would say, "How are you doing ___BOY___?"


I'm supposed to believe now that a Bishop refused to see you about an incident of abuse because he was too busy disciplining Church members and then refused to teach Repentance? Nuh-uh. Most Bishops I know talk about repentance from the pulpit ALL the time. It's part of their calling.

Anyway, this is just another example (and I have HUNDREDS) of Mormons worshipping "Success" and $$$. Go to any affluent ward, and you'll never, if ever, hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached. You'll hear the Gospel of Gain, over and over and over and over and over again.


I was raised in an affluent ward and heard it taught and lived. No one EVER promised me material success if I lived the Gospel including my parents.

For most Mormons born into affluent wards, they are NEVER taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ (unless they independently read The Book of Mormon or the New Testament or go on a mission). They are raised to believe that the Gospel is about "wealth, success, achieving goals, etc". Many of these people DESPISE THE POOR! I know, I attended some of these wards while I was poor. Many wouldn't even talk to me.


Not true at all. They probably wouldn't talk to you because you're a liar and a dramaqueen.....nothing to do with you being poor.

This problem isn't so bad in affluent wards in Utah, but go to affluent wards in California, or Mesa Arizona, or affluent wards in the Pacific Northwest. You'll sit in Church, and you can FEEL the darkness surrounding you.


That's not darkness.....it's isolation due to dangerous personality flaws.

The Gospel of Gain has KILLED the Spirit in these wards. Perhaps this is why the Brethren are so concerned; having such a difficult time with men who cheat on their wives, or women marrying rich Gentile men, or sexual sin among youth. They aren't being taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Young Mormons born into affluent wards are NEVER told about Hell! Never! Many of them despise the poor just as their grandfathers or greatgrandfathers dispised "Negroes" or others they thought "inferior" to themselves. Their greatgrandfathers were RACISTS. But they are not "racists". That's not "politically-correct". They are ELITISTS today. They're the same kind of people, but instead of racism they believe in elitism. Many who attend BYU KNOW how these wealthy LDS youth from California and Arizona (and Oregon and Washington) are:
*Braggarts
*Self-centered
*Narcissistic
*Ego-driven
*Immoral
*Dishonest
*Elitist
*Despisers of the Poor


I fear you have become what you accuse others of being:

Braggart: Continually name-drop someone in your faith who you claim supported you and insist on this point.
Self-centered: Come to a message board not relating to your faith and make it about you. You were offended once, you were hurt once. Grow up.
Narcissistic: Protest to teenagers, canvass people for money, and believe that an entire faith should alter to meet your standards.
Ego-driven: Everything in your faith is about your and your personal conflicts. You want everyone to listen to you.
Immoral: You've worked in the sex industry and pepper your talk with sexual depravity.
Dishonest: Everything you've written here.
Elitist: Class others of your faith as not in agreement with so inferior and probably homosexual.
Despiser of Poor: I'm guessing you're still dealing with self-loathing here so that explains that.

They are, in almost all ways, JUST LIKE the Nephites before they were UTTERLY destroyed. In many, MANY, affluent Wards in the U.S., the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been COMPLETELY replaced by the Gospel of Gain. And the "fruits" are now coming into fruition.

To Prosper in the Land

Many Members think that Church activity promises them wealth. Does not The Book of Mormon say that if we obey the LORD and His servants we shall "prosper in the land"?

It does, but in Joseph Smith's day "prosper" did not mean wealth! Here are a few examples of how the word was used when The Book of Mormon was translated:

Lucy Mack Smith wrote to Oliver Cowdery:

"Samuel remained with his brother untill july or August he then went back to the State of New York and brought us news of their success and prosperity. This roused in Martin Harris a great desire to go down to Penn to see how they were prospering for himself aas he was more than commonly interested in the matter." (Biographical Sketches, p.118)

In fact, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were poorer than Church mice (i.e. churches are clean and have no food and the mice starv for want of food) when they were working on The Book of Mormon translation in Harmony, Pennsylvania! What did Lucy mean by "success" and "prospering"? Certainly NOT they were getting wealthy!

Here is another example: Joseph Smith writes:

"I arrived at home on Sunn morn. the 4th after a prosperous journey...." (Letter of Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdery, Oct. 22nd, 1829, LDS Church Archives)

Did Joseph Smith make a lot of money on that journey! No! He was poor...poorer than poor!

In Joseph Smith's time to "prosper" and "prosperity" did NOT mean "to become rich/wealthy" as it means today! The word "prosper" and "prosperity" were the opposite of "adverse" and "adversity". To "prosper" meant you had no adversity, and had nothing to do with money or wealth or position; as many Members of the Church think today.

The Prophet Mormon in The Book of Mormon, has a prophetic vision of the "Mormons" of the latter-days. He addresses them, saying:

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?” (Mormon 8: 35-39)
This is a "FIT" discription of many affluent Wards, especially in California and Arizona! I know, I've belonged to such Wards where "wealth" and earthly accomplishment are seen as "signs" that one has been "blessed" by God, and poverty or a lowly status in the things of the world is seen as a "sign" one is has been "cursed" by God (not blessed), and that one is leading a very "unworthy" life engrossed in secret unrepentant sins. Often, the exact opposite is true! Truly, the poor are DESPISED by many of the more aflluent Members of the Church, who have been taught in their Wards since birth, and who believe that the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" is a "way" to "make one a success in life".
That is NOT the purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

But you cannot tell these people that, or they'll want to kill you.


No one wants to kill you for saying the gospel is not one of material prosperity. They don't teach this.

Please....let your students KNOW that there is no promise of wealth/prosperity in the Book of Mormon, which is a fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! The term "Prosperity" in the Book of Mormon means what it meant in Joseph Smith's day, NOT OUR DAY, and it meant the opposite of adversity. It did NOT mean the "opposite of poverty" as it means today!


Wait....this is all still that letter???? You wrote the crazy story about the Bishop's counselor threatening your life and thought they'd believe you? LOLOLOLOLOL

Let them KNOW that, or some of them will continue to believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is about how "to succeed in life". And it is NOT about that! It isn't about aquiring wealth in this life, but treasures in heaven!

It is my hope that you can do as Jesus did. While these Mormon youth are promised "earthly goodies" on Sunday, during the week you tell them just the opposite; that we should store up treasures in heaven, and that riches are not a "sign" of being blessed, but rather a hindrance to entering the Celestial Kingdom. That is what Jesus actually taught, and was one of the main teachings of His Gospel! Today, many in the Church teach the exact opposite under the name of the "Mormon Philosophy"; which is a Philosophy of Men, mingled with Scripture.
[/quote]

You sure know how to insult people when you try to correct them into doing what you want (and they're already doing anyways).
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Ezias
_Emeritus
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:40 am

.

Post by _Ezias »

.
Last edited by Anonymous on Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
_NickFerrari
_Emeritus
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: Mormons and the Gospel of Gain...

Post by _NickFerrari »

Nehor, you sir today are my hero.
_Islamormoyid
_Emeritus
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:13 am

Re: Mormons and the Gospel of Gain...

Post by _Islamormoyid »

Hat tip to both The Nehor and Ezias. I'm a bit left of center in the sense that in the business world I'm definitely in the Party of the Left as it were. I guess the best thing I can say the Party of the Right in the business world is that Ayn Rand is both naughty AND nice. That said, I love business people, especially entrepreneurs.

I have to second Ezias's observations about the kind of salt-of-the-earth business people that fill our Main Streets across the width and breadth of USAmerica. They are very self-reliant...they have to be because their bank can cut their credit lines at time. They often have started out putting up everything they own, including their homes as guarantee for whatever they could get their bankers to lend them. Their employees often have a feeling of entitlement and make demands on their employers that forces other people to pick up the work load, and it all just lengthens the entrepreneur's and manager's business day unecessarily. This is my daily experience as well as the experience of my bosses, that of s*** rolling down hill. Sometimes the objects people push at you are large stones and boulders, just because folks want to skip work on a weekend and go to a concert they had months to plan for. You always know that over two-thirds of the call-in-sick calls are pure b.s. but you have to grin and bear it on each occasion because the habitual liars are on occasion really telling you the truth.

Successful business people on Main Street are not usually arrogant, they've had whatever rough-edges they started off with knocked off. As a result they are quite polished. And they aren't made bitter by the experience. No, their compassion and understanding actually increases. Understand, this does not make them less demanding, they cannot afford to be.

Would I prefer that their businesses not be benevolent dictatorships but rather economic democracies? In theory yes, but the cultural reality often precludes this possibility, there are so many hours in a day and a lot of work that needs to get done whether or not people step up to their god-given potential or not.

Pride is a nasty thing. I would say intellectual pride is even worse. Those who "know" they are right and suffer extreme cognitive dissonance when proven otherwise. Funny thing about pride is, for me being humble and teachable is what has lead to my abnormal financial success. I was willing to learn from every possible source I could and never had the "well I know better anyway" attitude. Seek first the kingdom of God, and then all these things shall be added unto you, if you desire them.


Ezias, everything you just said. The older I get the more I know what it is that I do not know. Consequently I always feel that a whole new world awaits me around the corner and that I can't even accurately anticipate what that new world looks like. We don't have to know it all, that's not the point. The point is to develop our ability to solve problems. Human beings are problem solvers. It is important to our human development (not just our business lives) that we learn how to solve problems. Arrogance often gets in the way, and the realities of life progressively wear it away. It's all about the journey and learning to build that road as we travel.

This is probably wrong, as in not quite doctrinally correct or whatever, but I often view this world as being much like the world that God, Angels and the Just live in. We have the potential to live the kind of life they live with God, joining them in the kind of work they do, but if we were there in our present condition as sinful little sniveling newbies we'd just mess the thing up and make them and ourselves miserable.

So they concocted a plan to give us the very same kind of environment they have. We don't get to mess up their perfect setup, but we get the same kind of ground they've got, we get to start where they started. In their world they have peace, boundless creativity, lives of meaning and joy. We develop that potential to have the very same, here. By trial-and-error, because gosh darn it, we're really that thick. Over the process of ages of human history our experience increases and our capacities develop, and we start to mirror the lives they live. Soon, the peace and meaningful lives they live become the lives we live and we find ourselves stepping up to join them in their work. As above, then so below.
_Ezias
_Emeritus
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:40 am

.

Post by _Ezias »

.
Last edited by Anonymous on Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply