DiscussMormonism.com

I had involement in several threads ongoing. I was obviously under the wrong impression that I was providing material worthy of discussion. I've been suspended again ... and with the several threads outstanding I have no idea why.

I was interested in a continued conversation with Wade if he was interested. Would someone tell him I can not respond anymore in case he was.

The Temple sealing issue is also near and dear to my heart, A notice there that I can no longer respond would be appreciated.

Any mods watching, you might as well change it to a ban. That is my best behaivor and I obviously have nothing to offer the board.

Thanks.

Hey Rock Slider, sorry about your bad news. I was kicked from MADB after posting on it for years, so was a good friend of mine but he just changed his details went back and reinvented himself. I had done that before but this time I think they banned my ISP or whatever I dunno I am a ludite. I have a knack for asking the wrong questions it has always gotten me into trouble.

I went mad trying to work out what angle to take as an apologist, I still don't know, unfortunately I chose the wrong place to try and figure that out. I dunno much about this site, but I love it's sort of street fighting principal of "the only rule is there are no rules!" Mormons, Anti's, are given complete freedom to express their views. I think as long as MADB has such strong censorship sites like this one will always get more views and interest. And even if this site didn't exist someone else would've thought of the same foundation I think to base a blog on. My only memory of you was how orthodox and straight down the line you were. Anyhow I think more good can be done. . . here than there for the cause.

Welcome, Rumpole! I hope you like it over here on the Shade's board. Your opinion is always wecome even if we disagree. But, I must say that I like it much better when people agree with me. <snicker>

Have a nice day.

Paul O

Thank you Paul, your very kind. Hey tell me something I haven't blogged in some time now, is Dr. Shades considered the number one Anti-Mormon in the blogging world? I recall he is not an x-mormon and he is Dan Petersen's nemesis, but apart from that I don't know too much about him. Oh well it's good to be back in the circus, what can I say... Oh does DCP ever come in here, does anyone know? what is the deal/situation there?

Rumpole wrote:Thank you Paul, your very kind. Hey tell me something I haven't blogged in some time now, is Dr. Shades considered the number one Anti-Mormon in the blogging world? I recall he is not an x-mormon and he is Dan Petersen's nemesis, but apart from that I don't know too much about him. Oh well it's good to be back in the circus, what can I say... Oh does DCP ever come in here, does anyone know? what is the deal/situation there?

You seem like a rather interesting chap, Rump. To answer your questions, I'm afraid I'm not the best person to answer those. But I will say that Dr. Shades is former LDS and has stood up against the false religion of Mormonism. The Internet is really hurting the church as so many people get more information that the church leaders would like to keep quiet. From what I've seen, the Internet is causing the church to bleed pretty badly. Of course, faithful LDS will deny that and assert the opposite. LDS faithful tend to exaggerate.

I've recently turned against the church and am still in the burning anger stage. It's quite unhealthy, I do confess. Well, I invested 47 years of my life into this religion but see things very differently now. I've been using alcohol as a drug to cope with life after a divorce some 2 years ago. I'm not suppose to post while drinking or Dr. Shades will get upset with me. So, I do try to avoid the board if I've sipped too much. I don't get drunk, just a little tipsey. My world turned upside down but things will be getting better soon. I'm getting ready to make some positive changes . . . .

Mr. Peterson is a rather smart blote. I've had the fortunate opportunity to converse with him on the boards from time to time over the years. I attended one of his seminars here in Dallas a few months ago and got to meet his jolly good self. I have nothing but good things to say about him other than he continues to stick with the church of the Rattle-day Snakes. Knowing all he knows you'd think he would opt out but I guess that his professional career needs influence him more than his imagined testimony that the church is true. Dan used to post here and had lots of conversations with us apostates but since left to spruce up his personal image and make some personal changes. But, I think he will be back. He may come back under a different name and play undercover games but I think he will eventually be back alltogether as his jolly good self. This (MD board) is and always will be his home. The MAD board is fun for him but it will never satisfy him. He needs the direct less moderated conflict available here. Besides, Dr. Scratch has some more lessons to teach him. Dr. Scratch is Peterson's foe and is very smart.

Paul O

Thank you Paul sorry to hear about your bad experience I do not discount the fact you may of been legitimately screwed by the church (it happens unfortunately from time to time) or your local leaders, if that is the case I hope you come through the other side. Unfortunately people get screwed in the telestial world and being in the church is no different even if it is true, as it is part of the telestial world and not separate from it in any way.

Feel free to call me Rump or I prefer Rumpage but whatever floats your boat, I am no one important just an average cockaspaniel. Dan Petersen used to call himself Crispy Creme, when I started to call him just Crispy he himself didn't mind however the moderators acted as though I had just insulted the Lords Prophet, and I was censured. Hey what can I say the man likes his doughnuts who doesn't it's no crime.

It's difficult to gauge I think how much the internet hurts the church, personally I don't think the average ward Mormon has a clue what is going on out there so the internet has no impact for them, but to the investigator who uses it as the first port of call, well there may be problems. Your right I think the internet is hurting the church, they need to radically change their apologetic strategy, I kept pushing for that at MADB but I was ridiculed. . . change is always hard to accept, it needs to be introduce slowly.

I am glad your getting back on track, I reckon there are better things to do with ones life than an obsession with Mormonism whether pro or anti. Yeah Petersen is pretty clever, but not that clever even I have caught him out on a number of things, and I am a complete nothing, as I said an average cockaspaniel. I also read somewhere that world renown Arabist authorities have never heard of him after some guy started emailing them to find out. That does not however discredit his academic credibility as I see it.

He carries a great deal of social responsibility for the LDS people because now that Nibley is deceased culturally he is the intelligensia pin up boy for the Mormons, albeit self appointed. Daniel is a good man and means well and 99% of the time does well, however I do wonder occasionally what would happen if some of his long heated blog exchanges were printed and sent to church authorities, I mean transcripts of them mailed to the brethren...

I am not sure they understand exactly what he does online. I have read his testimony and his conviction is based from my reading on his personal study and the weight of evidence after all he is an academic and there is nothing wrong with that kind of testimony. However mine is based on spiritual experience purely, which is a different kind of testimony.

I personally think he takes too much upon himself, it almost seems at times like it's Daniel Vs the entire World. He seems to of found his calling as an apologist however he is an arabist, there are other LDS academics that would be much better positioned with their educational backgrounds & expertise to act as apologists than Petersen but he appears to of found his life calling and the latter seem to make no online appearance, and that is something few of us find, our true life's calling, I have not found mine.

He believes in defending by any means, I believe in only defending the truth, differing ideologies neither necessarily bad, because I think short term truth will hurt but long term it will greatly fortify the church, but people only think short term, but it always comes back to bite one on the bottom if you don't do it 100% truthfully. He is a large imposing figure standing at about 6ft 4or5 inches tall he is no midget, often people don't realize this when they go to meet him at these various functions.

Sorry is Dr. Scratch and Dr. Shades the same person, I have been out of the loop for some time. Perhaps it's doctor Scratch I am thinking of that was never LDS. Oh DCP does not go undercover that is not his style...

Rumpole wrote:Sorry is Dr. Scratch and Dr. Shades the same person, I have been out of the loop for some time.

No, Doctor Scratch and I are two entirely different people.

Perhaps it's doctor Scratch I am thinking of that was never LDS.

Doctor Scratch has never commented on his membership in the LDS church--or possible lack thereof--either way.

Rump wrote: Thank you Paul sorry to hear about your bad experience I do not discount the fact you may of been legitimately screwed by the church (it happens unfortunately from time to time) or your local leaders, if that is the case I hope you come through the other side. Unfortunately people get screwed in the telestial world and being in the church is no different even if it is true, as it is part of the telestial world and not separate from it in any way.

No one in particular screwed me, nor has anyone been unkind to me. It's just the fact that I lived the tenets of Mormonism for a long time and believed so many untruths. It’s time to move on.

Rump wrote: It's difficult to gauge I think how much the internet hurts the church, personally I don't think the average ward Mormon has a clue what is going on out there so the internet has no impact for them, but to the investigator who uses it as the first port of call, well there may be problems. Your right I think the internet is hurting the church, they need to radically change their apologetic strategy, I kept pushing for that at MADB but I was ridiculed. . . change is always hard to accept, it needs to be introduce slowly.

MAD will never concede because they are built upon the foundation of defending their position at all cost. The General Authorities also defend their truth at any cost. They like to keep things in their comfort zone.

Rump wrote: I am glad your getting back on track, I reckon there are better things to do with ones life than an obsession with Mormonism whether pro or anti. Yeah Petersen is pretty clever, but not that clever even I have caught him out on a number of things, and I am a complete nothing, as I said an average cockaspaniel. I also read somewhere that world renown Arabist authorities have never heard of him after some guy started emailing them to find out. That does not however discredit his academic credibility as I see it.

No argument here.

Rump wrote: He carries a great deal of social responsibility for the LDS people because now that Nibley is deceased culturally he is the intelligensia pin up boy for the Mormons, albeit self appointed. Daniel is a good man and means well and 99% of the time does well, however I do wonder occasionally what would happen if some of his long heated blog exchanges were printed and sent to church authorities, I mean transcripts of them mailed to the brethren...

Yes, Dan has fallen into some mighty big shoes. Someone has to fill the vacuum and he has taken up quite a bit of that space. But really, he is no Hugh Nibley. The Nibley age is over, Mormon apologetics will evolve.

If I wanted to it wouldn’t be too hard to get all of Dan’s blog into the hands of the GA’s. I could arrange to have 10,000 copies made and delivered to church headquarters at 3AM in the morning. Not on the front door step or the mail box, but scattered all over the grounds, the sidewalks, walkways, garden beds, street curbs, window ledges, etc. All of that could be done quite easily. Major confetti for downtown Salt Lake City! The cost in printing and dumping the papers would be a few bucks but I can assure you that copies would make their way into the hands of the GA’s. If 10,000 copies fail, another 50,000 could follow. Whatever it takes.

Rump wrote: I am not sure they understand exactly what he does online. I have read his testimony and his conviction is based from my reading on his personal study and the weight of evidence after all he is an academic and there is nothing wrong with that kind of testimony. However mine is based on spiritual experience purely, which is a different kind of testimony.

The General Authorities live in bubbles. Their reality is based in places normal people will not go.

Rump wrote: I personally think he takes too much upon himself, it almost seems at times like it's Daniel Vs the entire World. He seems to of found his calling as an apologist however he is an arabist, there are other LDS academics that would be much better positioned with their educational backgrounds & expertise to act as apologists than Petersen but he appears to of found his life calling and the latter seem to make no online appearance, and that is something few of us find, our true life's calling, I have not found mine.

It’s difficult to say. Peterson could leave the church under certain conditions. If the GA’s dump him and he looses face he could get angry.

Rump wrote: He believes in defending by any means, I believe in only defending the truth, differing ideologies neither necessarily bad, because I think short term truth will hurt but long term it will greatly fortify the church, but people only think short term, but it always comes back to bite one on the bottom if you don't do it 100% truthfully. He is a large imposing figure standing at about 6ft 4or5 inches tall he is no midget, often people don't realize this when they go to meet him at these various functions.

Strange, he seemed like a jolly fat man when I met him. But I am a powerful and fearless person in my own mind so there are not many people that seem imposing to me.

Paul O

Dr. Shades wrote:Doctor Scratch has never commented on his membership in the LDS church--or possible lack thereof--either way.

Are you sure? Perhaps we need someone like Dr. Scratch to research past posts to fact check this question.

Paul: MAD will never concede because they are built upon the foundation of defending their position at all cost. The General Authorities also defend their truth at any cost. They like to keep things in their comfort zone.

My understanding is the reason General Authorities cannot admit any decisions made by General Authorities or the church or themselves have ever been erroneous is because to do so could appear as though they are not inspired and not the Lords ordained servants, which understanding by members could cause a lack of faith and obedience to the church's leaders and disorder. I think that is the fear.

So when a action is found to be erroneous rather than admit they were wrong they simply make another corrective decision, and instead of admitting it is a corrective decision they simply say it's a new decision without past acknowledgment of it being erroneous.

The approach is a PR one, the kind that does not acknowledge they have been burning bridges after crossing them but not admitting when they need to rebuild the same bridge that they previously burned down.

You will see this if you look closely at the church's policy on the avoidance of the use of the word Mormon, eventually they realized they were wrong and couldn't change the public's choice to use the word and subsequently they did a 180' about face and have started using the word in official website addresses but at the same time, not endorsing it to be used again in circulation. Thus with no acknowledgment of error contradication arises without explanation. Now personally I believe in the general authorities, and I can appreciate the unique complex challenges that their job presents and the difficulties they have in addressing problems.

Personally I would like to see the Apostles answer some of the many questions that come up repeatedly in blogs in an open public setting, that is not controlled but decorous and moderated. Sorta like Paul on Mars Hill, out among the people. Instead of leaving apologetic's up to the general membership like me, who is totally unqualified to do so I think they should have a say.

These men claim to be apostles and I believe they are, so I think the church should show case them, the true and living apostles, who speak with power and authority let them answer the difficult questions people have over history and doctrine in a public setting. I really think there should be more public interviews and exposure, I believe the Lord would uphold them if this was the case.

The GA's can not ever admit any errors at any cost Paul, because people have misguided perceptions over the nature of the Lords servants as totally infallable and they know this.

Paul: If I wanted to it wouldn’t be too hard to get all of Dan’s blog into the hands of the GA’s. I could arrange to have 10,000 copies made and delivered to church headquarters at 3AM in the morning. Not on the front door step or the mail box, but scattered all over the grounds, the sidewalks, walkways, garden beds, street curbs, window ledges, etc.

All of that could be done quite easily. Major confetti for downtown Salt Lake City! The cost in printing and dumping the papers would be a few bucks but I can assure you that copies would make their way into the hands of the GA’s. If 10,000 copies fail, another 50,000 could follow. Whatever it takes.

Paul sounds like your planning a military propaganda leaflet drop! on a massive scale - sounds like an environmental disaster... However I don't think that is necessary I do think general authorities would have real concerns over some of the things Daniel has written in heated blogs.

However I don't think that is the true Daniel, I think any man would bare his teeth if cornered and surrounded by a pack of wolves, trying to knock them off their perch or take them down a notch or two. I do not think I would behave any differently. Whether being surrounded by a pack of wolves is real or imagined it makes no difference to the person feels there is a real threat.

As far as I am concerned and where I think the confusion arises is that Daniel doesn't speak for the church any more than any other member. However people perceiving him to be more authoritative than he actually is, is the source of all his problems in my opinion. For example when people see his avatar which is of some evil villian like your own, they are baffled and wonder why is it like that, and what has lead him to do that.

Paul: The General Authorities live in bubbles. Their reality is based in places normal people will not go.

In some cases I think this is true, in other cases I think the General Authorities are very switched on, perceptive and on the ball. In the recent case of Bruce C. Hafens talk on the causes of homosexuality that set the church back, it appeared he had no idea about the delicate situation the church was in over the matter almost like he wasn't reading the news papers or communicating with other general authorities, I don't know what was going on there... I think it's a peculiar mixture of some being very very sharp & street wise, and others at times clueless in my opinion.