Earning Points for Huge Heavenly Rewards

[_moksha]

Was reading in the Washington Post, a piece by Mormon and Harvard Business Professor, Clayton Christiansen:

And third, does "winning" mean something different to members of different churches? In other words, do views differ on the purpose of our lives and what rewards await those who consistently follow the prescribed behavior?

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/clayton_christensen/2010/07/are_all_religions_the_same_3.html

So how do these points add up for members of other Churches and what are their choices at the Heavenly redemption booth?

Do they feel that if they consistently follow the prescibed behavior they will get something comparable to seventy two virgins and a suitably oxygenated planet to begin populating?

I would wonder beyond Professor Christiansen's query, about the assumption that these other belief traditions see a system of behaviors and rewards as being what it is all about.

Your thoughts?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Mok,

even though their churches explicitly teach that this is will not be the case. Widespread acceptance of abortion and premarital sex, and the practice of convening mass late on Saturday afternoon so that it won't interfere with CYO basketball games on Sunday also are examples of generally accepted beliefs and behaviors that are at odds with official policies and biblical teachings. Cafeteria-style, many choose which of their church's teachings they will and won't accept, based upon whether the concept fits what they want to believe, rather than conforming their lives to the teachings of their church. In contrast, people typically give up their prior practices and beliefs and conform themselves to the teachings of the church when they convert to Mormon Christianity. For better or worse, it tends to be a 24-7, 100% buy-in to a way of life. There are no doctrinal cafeterias. Churches differ markedly along this spectrum of adherence

.

What the heck?

Mormon Christianity? This is the first time I have heard this term.

No cafeteria Mormons? Are you kidding?

While yeah, Mormonism is intense and a 24/7 commitment for members who are in the elite club (TR holding folk), I hardly know any Mormon who doesn't pick and choose what doctrine/teaching they believe and what rules they will follow.

~td~

[_moksha]

I hardly know any Mormon who doesn't pick and choose what doctrine/teaching they believe and what rules they will follow.

~td~

How could they not pick and choose considering all the disparate remarks made by various church leaders throughout the years, as well as many contradictory statements found within the scriptures? They pick and choose that which makes the most sense to them or that which they believe they should follow.

Wonder how insulated this Harvard Business Professor is from the various members of the Church?

[_ajax18]

This was a major issue for me. My interpretation of the New Testament when I initially read it regarding, "treasure in heavan," etc. got me interested and fervently living religion in my youth. But then the question became, "What is this treasure?" I couldn't really find a good answer. How exactly are we progressing by sitting through Church meetings and how exactly does this make us more happy now or in the future? I still couldn't find a good answer, much less one that anybody agreed upon within the Church.

But they continued to bring up the question. Why did you come on a mission? Why do you come to Church? The reasons I had based on the scripture I alluded to above were eschewed as immature and selfish. I don't want to be brainwashed and charmed to a point where I just do what I'm told because it's my nature even when it doesn't really make me happy now or in the future. Hence the quote I included from an argument I got into with Wade England and Selek over at MAD. At the end of the day, when I seriously asked myself, "Why?" the answer always came back to that scripture, and admittedly an ultimately selfish motive. It's a scripture that Mormons like Wade and Selek don't really believe in literally. It's just a bone thrown to spiritually immature people like myself to lure us in but never really comes true.

I get the impression that perhaps Professor Christiansen interprets that scripture similar to how I would. And for me to really do what is required in the Mormon Church and be happy about it, you would have to believe that, especially when it came to serving missions etc. But Moshka can you explain to me how you are progressing by sitting through Church meetings? I just couldn't see how it was helping me or anyone else so I quit. Perhaps if I found a good reason I 'd be more than happy to go back, but right now the reasons offered by fellow Mormons like Selek and Wade just don't cut it for me.

I'm not saying I'm completely devoid of altruism and genuine compassion. But for every day I refrained from premarital sex, every month I paid my tithing, I couldn't help but feel there better be a cumulative reward of some sort, otherwise it just was not worth it.

[_moksha]

But Moksha can you explain to me how you are progressing by sitting through Church meetings? I just couldn't see how it was helping me or anyone else so I quit. Perhaps if I found a good reason I 'd be more than happy to go back, but right now the reasons offered by fellow Mormons like Selek and Wade just don't cut it for me.

I like to progress from one hour to the next during those three-hour blocks. ;-)

Seriously, I like to worship God together with my fellow members. That in itself is reason for me to keep coming back. It is spiritually nourishing. Now as to the parts you resented but felt worth following for a big eternal reward, this is entirely up to you. My thought is that God loves you despite your imperfections.

[_ajax18]

Seriously, I like to worship God together with my fellow members.

Could you think of more pleasant activities or places to be than Church on Sunday morning? I enjoy it to an extent as well, but if enjoyment is the only motivation I just can't see how that would be enough for anybody. Maybe I'm just different.

Now as to the parts you resented but felt worth following for a big eternal reward, this is entirely up to you.

I wish it were entirely up to me. The problem is that because the question of why we do what we do seems to come up in everything I would do at Church. It came up in my teaching when I was called to preach and motivate other people to do the right things. In having different beliefs on this issue, I just didn't feel like I was fitting in. I also began to question what benefit some of the things I was asked to do in Mormonism was to myself or even other people. Statements like the quote I have from Selek in my signature line really bother me. It's almost a manifestation of the treachery feared by every doubting investigator when Heavanly Father's "Plan of Happiness," is first presented. Does it make people happier or not? Well, not according to Selek it doesn't. I have a real problem with that. But from what I know for sure now, with the exception of my favorite scripture, I have no proof to say he isn't right.


You seem to hold some different beliefs than mainstream chapel Mormons. What made you want to try to fit in and how did you manage to do it? Have you ever had to pay lip service to something you did not agree with in Mormonism, just to maintain order and hold the party line? What do you do when you have to teach a class? Have you ever had to testify that you believe in a historical Book of Mormon?

[_moksha]

I wish it were entirely up to me.

Your beliefs are up to you. Part of free agency.

Well, not according to Selek it doesn't. I have a real problem with that. But from what I know for sure now, with the exception of my favorite scripture, I have no proof to say he isn't right.

Joseph Smith said men are that they might have joy.

You seem to hold some different beliefs than mainstream chapel Mormons. What made you want to try to fit in and how did you manage to do it? Have you ever had to pay lip service to something you did not agree with in Mormonism, just to maintain order and hold the party line? What do you do when you have to teach a class? Have you ever had to testify that you believe in a historical Book of Mormon?

I'm not sure I fit in all places relating to the Church. I have received some rough treatment on LDS run message boards and a contingent of some Mormons would hold that I am not a Good Mormon (or perhaps any kind of Mormon) because I do not hold their same political philosophy.
However, the people in my ward have been very kind to me.

Lip service? I have been able to get by simply stating what I do believe. On the chapel level they do not seem to require an exact recitation of any set creed. Teach Classes? They have never even asked me to speak in Sacrament Meeting. Some years back, folks used to invite me to speak and sometimes offered honorariums to do so. I now enjoy my status as an onlooker and spiritual seeker.

Testimony time is a bit different. I tell of my belief in the promise of Jesus Christ, the loving nature of God and my thankfulness for the atoning sacrifice. It might seem odd, but none would ever call it heresy. Did I mention how nice my fellow ward members are?

.

[_Roger Morrison]

Passing through, and after window-shopping the various pages, this topic looked interesting. Making it more so was the number of my MDB favourite folks posting. Hi All! TD's new look: WOW!

"Earning points and Huge...Rewards" seems so juvenile and manipulative; tending to divert attention from what might be discomforting or mundane to a more pleasant and juicey supplement that is unknowingly being paid for. YIKES!

Children respond to such a system readily -- generally. Since so few of us really pass fully beyond immaturity, we respond to the same old-tricks.

Since, "Man is that he might have joy!" Let that suffice!! Take it where you find it. When, or if, it ceases to be joyful, move on. When your old shoes become uncomfortable, get a new pair. When the meetings become toooo boring, sleep inducing - it's up to you. Free will. . .

I loved serving and contributing to LDSism for 30+ years. That did not obligate me to stay when that love-affair ended. Go with Your flow. Let others do the same. You'll feel good and so will they. Nice to be in your company. Warm regards, Roger

[_truth dancer]

AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Roger's back!

YAY!

We miss your words of wisdom!

Hope life is great!

~td~

[_Roger Morrison]

Hey Dancer!!! How nice to find you here this morning. Makes my day!!!

Yes, "...life is great!" I'm alive!:-) (Won't always be :-) Sort-of paraphrasing J.S. Life is that it might be great!
Not that it always is on a high point. But that it can be. Not always by your making. Often determined by the company one keeps, literally & figuratively.

As misery-loves-company. 'Joy' and 'great' expand in the company of joyful and dynamic productive folks who live in the present, unmindful of points gathered by sacrifice to redeem in a distant heaven. Momments applied meaningfully to purpose are what really matters! Could make one ponder their "purpose" and habits :-)???

Re Heavenly Rewards: Depends if 'Heaven-ly' refers to a place or a feeling. As an adjective it is valid. Like heavenly chocolate, feeling of companionship, etc. As a noun, 'Heaven' is an ancient writer's term used to illustrate unimaginable wonder and grandeur. Such as attempted in The Celestial Room, wherein one is conditioned to reverence decor. . .

Enough already. . . Warm regards, Roger (hugs)