Church as purely a political entity???!!!

[_moksha]

Whether it's Elder Dallin Oaks talking politics from the Tabernacle on "Constitution Day" or Bcspace and Droopy always touting some sort of political litmus test for Mormon membership, there seems to be a well established movement afoot to covert the LDS Church from a religion into a purely political entity in the guise of religion.

I recently ran across this quote from poster Obiwan on the MAD board:

Liberals and Anti-mormons act and think the exact same way, bearing false witness and without honor toward their target. Years of dealing with anti-mormons and related religious scholarship and now a few years dealing with liberals and political scholarship, and there is no difference in who they are serving in their endeavors. The Dark Side of the Force.... It's the "Left" for a good reason.

I am very concerned about this push to make the Church into a partisan political entity and I would hope that many of my fellow religionists share this concern as well. How can we reach out to the world if what we have to offer is but a peculiar brand of American politics?

.

[_ajax18]

You have a very good point Moshka. Yet, IMHO the church seems to have been more one dimensional in political thinking in the recent past 20-30 years than the present.

Issues I've seen the Church move left on:

1. Refusal to announce time and place for anti abortion rallies on the grounds that the Church was not a center for political debate.
2. Instituting a don't ask, don't tell policy on illegal immigration. Granted George Bush and the elite part of the Republican party are big fans of illegal immigration as well for obvious reasons.
3. Prominent Democrats like Harry Reid seems to be a new phenomena that I would have a hard time reconciling with political positions as little as 20 years ago like those of then prophet Ezra Taft Benson, author of "The Red Carpet."
4. Politicians like Orrin Hatch gave a different take on Stem Cell Research than conservative Baptist and Catholic Republicans based in part on the fact that they were Mormon and not controlled by Rome.

The issue that I think supports your case on the other hand is the Proposition 8 issue, especially the lengths to which the Church was willing to go to fight this issue. I still don't completely understand why the Church took this position. It did not seem like a very wise political move. If most things done in Church are political, and I believe they are, sometimes unapologetically so, it doesn't make much sense to me why they went down that road. Posters like Obiwan are still believers in Mormon thinking in terms of the church as an answer to the golden philosophical questions. From what I've seen, the Church no longer looks for potential converts amongst those asking philosophical questions and searching for meaning. It's more of a social club where converts are made and retained based on interpersonal relationships rather than a restoration of the true gospel, that answers the questions the current religious authority could not. Obiwan is hanging on to something that is moving in the other direction.

[_moksha]

You are right Ajax, this is not a fait accompli. Even within this last year, the Church has widened the scope of its mission to care for the poor and downtrodden. This is a move on which Glenn Beck would not have approved but emanates as a gospel mandate instead.

[_ajax18]

It's definitely a gospel mandate to care for the poor and downtrodden in my view. But I don't really see seizing power and taking other people's money to give to the poor as Christlike. I do see giving your own money and things that belong to you as being Christlike. There is nothing generous about giving away other peoples money.

Mother Teresa, I would call a heroe and an example of Christlike living. Lenin?... Not in my view.

[_moksha]

Thomas Hobbs might argue that it is in the best interest of the State to have everybody donate since even the religious cannot be counted on for always doing good.

Droopy would term him a Lefto-Nazi-Fascist-Socialist-Marxist-Obamaite and Bcspace would add that he cannot be a good Mormon.

[_ajax18]

Thomas Hobbs might argue that it is in the best interest of the State to have everybody donate since even the religious cannot be counted on for always doing good.

Well you do have a point in that the Church espouses the law of consecration as the highest of economic systems. So I guess the Church could espouse capitalism or socialism at a given time. But either way, you're dealing with the same bad people and probably a similar result.

Jesus also talked about oppressing the hireling in his wages, a scripture that is often skipped over by hard nosed LDS businessmen.

[_moksha]

Jesus also talked about oppressing the hireling in his wages, a scripture that is often skipped over by hard nosed LDS businessmen.

They also miss that the protagonist in the Parable of the Talents was the servant who refused to make profit for his businessman owner by placing God's law above the interests of the slaver. Usury gained by seeking interest on loans was disapproved of at this time. The slave owner should have set sail for New Jersey instead and practiced on his Jewish neighbors in Mesoamerica.

[_Roger Morrison]

Whether it's Elder Dallin Oaks talking politics from the Tabernacle on "Constitution Day" or Bcspace and Droopy always touting some sort of political litmus test for Mormon membership, there seems to be a well established movement afoot to covert the LDS Church from a religion into a purely political entity in the guise of religion. Bold added by RM

I am very concerned about this push to make the Church into a partisan political entity and I would hope that many of my fellow religionists share this concern as well. How can we reach out to the world if what we have to offer is but a peculiar brand of American politics?

.

To the bolded in your text: "...from religion into...political..." Might that be a desirable future of Religion? That would put Religion more in service to masses than to church hiearchy and corporate expansion? That is of course visioning the evolution to higher good of both Religion and Politics. Being a positivist I see this as the inevitable way to see the desirable social and humanitarian teachings of Jesus materialize.
At that time "peculiar... American politics" won't exist. Nor will Canadian, Russian, Asian etc.

It is in the future. How far depends upon education and applied intelligence. That will emerge when nationalism, patriotism, partisanism, fear and ignorance are buried with the other relics of systemic evils.

It's all about social, human evolution! Don't fear it. Help shape and encourage it. It's what Jesus wants done! Making it happen, and work, is in human hands, as has been every scientific advancement from fire-by-friction to wireless communication. . .

The way I see things. . .

Warm regards, Roger M.

[_bcspace]

Whether it's Elder Dallin Oaks talking politics

The Church has published some of what he's said. Hence, doctrine.

or Bcspace and Droopy always touting some sort of political litmus test for Mormon membership

I've never done that. One can be a complete apostate and still get a TR though. Perhaps it's time I actually started agitating against the practice.

Even within this last year, the Church has widened the scope of its mission to care for the poor and downtrodden. This is a move on which Glenn Beck would not have approved but emanates as a gospel mandate instead.

A Church helping the poor as opposed to the government is quite the conservative notion so I think your implication here is baseless.

You have a very good point Moshka. Yet, IMHO the church seems to have been more one dimensional in political thinking in the recent past 20-30 years than the present.

Issues I've seen the Church move left on:

The Church has not changed any doctrines nor hase there been any lurching that would give comfort to a leftist.

1. Refusal to announce time and place for anti abortion rallies on the grounds that the Church was not a center for political debate.

The Church has emphasized it's nonpolitical stance for quite a while.

2. Instituting a don't ask, don't tell policy on illegal immigration.

That has always been the de facto policy.

Granted George Bush and the elite part of the Republican party are big fans of illegal immigration as well for obvious reasons.

What reasons would those be?

3. Prominent Democrats like Harry Reid seems to be a new phenomena that I would have a hard time reconciling with political positions as little as 20 years ago like those of then prophet Ezra Taft Benson, author of "The Red Carpet."

A non doctrinal work. The Church, both as a body of believers and the GA's, is actually quite angry with Reid and he seems to be trying to moderate his stance and look more centric.

4. Politicians like Orrin Hatch gave a different take on Stem Cell Research than conservative Baptist and Catholic Republicans based in part on the fact that they were Mormon and not controlled by Rome.

A non issue.

[_ajax18]

I've never done that. One can be a complete apostate and still get a TR though.

That's a very fair statement. I also liked your idea of excommunicating all people who quit attending after around a year. Admittedly I'd probably have been on that list, but I suppose you have to hash things out at some point. Perhaps neither they nor I still don't know enough to be sure if we really want to draw those lines.

2. Instituting a don't ask, don't tell policy on illegal immigration.

That has always been the de facto policy.

Yes and from my point of view it's very sad that the Church is unwilling to take a stand in favor of the law of the land. The fact that they give illegal immigrants temple recommends definitely caused me to lose a lot of respect for the entire temple worthy standard. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the bishops issuing the recommends were paying for illegal immigrant labor under the table, another reason I've lost a lot of respect for the Church. It's almost as disappointing as having a government that is unwilling to enforce laws against paying workers under the table, hiring illegal aliens, or letting them enter and remain in the country in the first place.

Granted George Bush and the elite part of the Republican party are big fans of illegal immigration as well for obvious reasons.

Maybe that as an owner of a huge amount of capital, President Bush was very fond of making arguments like, "Immigrants do the jobs American's won't." All the while omitting the fact that Americans were unwilling to do those jobs at the price President Bush would like pay for it. No man can support a family or even himself on $8/hr. It is an unconscionable wage in a developed country and is absolutely no different that slave labor in my view. It only differs in how you discriminate and decide who the slaves are.

A non doctrinal work. The Church, both as a body of believers and the GA's, is actually quite angry with Reid and he seems to be trying to moderate his stance and look more centric.

Who cares if they're angry. Why don't they make a statement and actually, "Stand for Something." I find it ironic that President Hinckley wrote that book. "I'm not aware that we teach it...."

4. Politicians like Orrin Hatch gave a different take on Stem Cell Research than conservative Baptist and Catholic Republicans based in part on the fact that they were Mormon and not controlled by Rome.

A non issue.[/quote]

It sure seemed like one in the medical science community. Good grief, and I was straining to find something we coudl agree on. Well, enough of that. Illegal immigration was a non issue for a long time. It's still being ignored to the detriment of every citizen in this country whether we aknowledge it or not. We need immigration reform. Well what good is making a new set of laws when we unable/unwilling to enforce the law. It's not like the current immigration laws were made by China and we were forced to implement them at gunpoint. We made these laws, through legal American deomcratic processes. And yet somehow we deem some of these laws as binding and some not? The entire argument in favor of illegal immigration is completely without any legal merit. And yet there is the LDS church right up there with George Bush and the lousy half of the Republican party saying, "But these people were doing all our work for us, you can't send them home."