Already the fallout

[_Joseph]

Stopped by an LDS friends place after talking with them on the phone. Seems this one is no longer the Sunday School teacher. Had given a lesson a few months ago and brought in some writings from Harvard(or Yale?) divinity school curriculum. It had to do with definitions and the point was made that LDS definitions and 'christian' were not the same thing and this should be kept in mind when working to convert others into the LDS fold.

A Stake visitor was there and asked pointedly "Where did you get that, it is NOT in the manual'?

Fast forward now and her asking the Bishop why Boyd Packers spoken talk and written talk are different. He, being an honest sort asked the Stake President who wanted to know 'why the question'. SP was told who and was then he directed the Bishop to call and inform the 'intellectual' they were no longer a Sunday School teacher.

It has been on the burner for a bit, of that are sure.
Somehow 'questions', honest inquiry and searching for knowledge, are not welcome.

This friend is worried now about being called an 'intellectual' in LDS speak and feels insulted by how it was used towards them.

Joseph, Brigham and many leaders taught members to question and gain their own faith rather than blindly following along. That is no longer the case, is it?

[_Nevo]

Joseph, Brigham and many leaders taught members to question and gain their own faith rather than blindly following along. That is no longer the case, is it?

I assume that this is a rhetorical question, with the expected response being "No"—but the Church does in fact still encourage its members to gain their own faith rather than follow their leaders blindly. Honest searching for answers—"faith seeking understanding"—is not discouraged.

However, if by "questioning" you mean pursuing a course of doubting and fault-finding, then that is discouraged. The Scriptures admonish us to "doubt not, but be believing" (Mormon 9:27; cf. D&C 6:36), since a doubtful heart blinds one to the things of the Spirit. As Elder Robert D. Hales noted in his October 2009 conference address, "when our outlook is dominated by skepticism, cynicism, criticism, and irreverence toward others and their beliefs, the Spirit cannot be with us."

In April 2003, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland cautioned parents against flirting with skepticism or cynicism, teaching that "in matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart." At the most recent conference, Elder Richard C. Edgley urged members to "choose faith over doubt, choose faith over fear, choose faith over the unknown and the unseen, and choose faith over pessimism," and then suggested some ways to do this.

As Joseph Smith put it in one of his last public sermons: "I never heard of a man being damned for believing too much but they are damned for unbelief" (quoted in Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 544).

[_Kevin Graham]

I assume that this is a rhetorical question, with the expected response being "No"—but the Church does in fact still encourage its members to gain their own faith rather than follow their leaders blindly. Honest searching for answers—"faith seeking understanding"—is not discouraged.

Yes it is, and it blows me away how so many apparently intelligent LDS folk can argue otherwise. Anyone who has served a mission knows the Church pushes prospective converts to take the plunge into the waters of baptism along with all the socio-religious covenants/commitments that it entails. I've had plenty of investigators ask for more time and we were pressured by the Church to commit them to baptism during the second discussion, less than a third of the way through the lesson plan. When they tried to deduce the facts intellectually, we were instructed to take them down the "spiritual" path, meaning a ten second feeling from prayer was better than three hours of library research. For this reason the Church is anti-intellectual since it requires people to draw a conclusion on the most important question of their lives, based not on education and sound analysis, but rather a feeling. Insurance salesmen use the same tactic. It only supports education for those who begin with the conclusion that the Church is true. This conclusion has to be acquired via a "spiritual witness," which is a fancy way of describing self-induced emotion based on what you want to believe to be true.

However, if by "questioning" you mean pursuing a course of doubting and fault-finding, then that is discouraged.

And the penny drops. When questioning naturally crosses that fine line, you essentially discourage such questioning. So it is disingenuous to say they encourage questioning without qualification. What you're saying is that questioning is encouraged so long as they're the right questions. Boyd K. Packer once said, in quoting Henry D. Moyle, "I never pay any attention to the questions... If he doesn't ask the right questions [the questions I like to be asked], I give answers to questions he should have asked." Robert Millett's notorious 2006 video says essentially the same thing. It is a tactic used by the most dishonest professions known to man, particularly politicians and attorneys; but the Church adopts it because it works, and deception is Ok so long as it reinforces their "kingdom" of God.

The Scriptures admonish us to "doubt not, but be believing" (Mormon 9:27; cf. D&C 6:36), since a doubtful heart blinds one to the things of the Spirit

This "scripture" was a convenient defense mechanism put in place by Joseph Smith who knew very well human intelligence would naturally be repelled by such nonsense. But saying a doubtful heart blinds us to things of the spirit is just idiotic, because the fact is the opposite is true. In fact, focusing on this nonsense called the "spirit" serves to ensure an otherwise intelligent person will act against his natural intelligence by rejecting anything that can be categoried as "doubt." He doesn't stand a chance of letting the natural process of doubt and analysis unfold because at that point Mormonism throwns up an cognitive roadblock and so his intellectual cowardice defers to whatever the Church says. He doesn't use his own brain because he isn't allowed to if he wants to remain in good standing.

As Elder Robert D. Hales noted in his October 2009 conference address, "when our outlook is dominated by skepticism, cynicism, criticism, and irreverence toward others and their beliefs, the Spirit cannot be with us."

And the fact is any intellectually honest analysis of Mormon claims would naturally result in skepticism and criticism. And that is why these comments are made; to condition the membership to recognie these instances as something evil instead of something natural. As if God gave us a brain to only learn what is taught in school and Church.

In April 2003, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland cautioned parents against flirting with skepticism or cynicism, teaching that "in matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart." At the most recent conference, Elder Richard C. Edgley urged members to "choose faith over doubt, choose faith over fear, choose faith over the unknown and the unseen, and choose faith over pessimism," and then suggested some ways to do this.

You're just reinforcing the obvious point that Mormonism is not an intellectuaal faith because its members enter it via anti-intellectual means. The irony is that there are many intelligent people in the faith. Their so-called "testimony" based on feelings is scientifically explained, quite easily actually, but they reject these explanations because they put the Church over everything else. They actually believe God tells us truth by playing our emotional strings.

[_cinepro]

In April 2003, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland cautioned parents against flirting with skepticism or cynicism, teaching that "in matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart."

If I ever start my own church, I'm totally using that!

[_Lucinda]

Hey cinepro-- if you ever start your own church, I'm totally going!

[_moksha]

In April 2003, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland cautioned parents against flirting with skepticism or cynicism, teaching that "in matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart."

Tomás de Torquemada might add that both the skeptical mind and the believing heart can be adequately dealt with by Church Security Ops.

[_cinepro]

Hey cinepro-- if you ever start your own church, I'm totally going!

Sadly, I might have once considered it. But I know I could never do a better job than this former Mormon.

[_emilysmith]

What sort of job would I be able to get with a degree in Spiritual Psychology? I imagine the sky would be the limit if I went all the way with a master's in Spiritual Science. At $15,000 a year, I think it would be a privilege to join the other 500 students under the tutelage of John-Roger.

[_dblagent007]

I assume that this is a rhetorical question, with the expected response being "No"—but the Church does in fact still encourage its members to gain their own faith rather than follow their leaders blindly. Honest searching for answers—"faith seeking understanding"—is not discouraged.

This means you can question and seek all you want, but only as long as you reach conclusions that allow you to continue to believe.

However, if by "questioning" you mean pursuing a course of doubting and fault-finding, then that is discouraged. The Scriptures admonish us to "doubt not, but be believing" (Mormon 9:27; cf. D&C 6:36), since a doubtful heart blinds one to the things of the Spirit. As Elder Robert D. Hales noted in his October 2009 conference address, "when our outlook is dominated by skepticism, cynicism, criticism, and irreverence toward others and their beliefs, the Spirit cannot be with us."

In April 2003, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland cautioned parents against flirting with skepticism or cynicism, teaching that "in matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart." At the most recent conference, Elder Richard C. Edgley urged members to "choose faith over doubt, choose faith over fear, choose faith over the unknown and the unseen, and choose faith over pessimism," and then suggested some ways to do this.

As Joseph Smith put it in one of his last public sermons: "I never heard of a man being damned for believing too much but they are damned for unbelief" (quoted in Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 544).

Yes, here are the quotations that make it clear that once you start to reach unacceptable conclusions, you are on thin ice. Seek to understand all you want, but don't even think about reaching certain conclusions.

[Guest]

However, if by "questioning" you mean pursuing a course of doubting and fault-finding, then that is discouraged. The Scriptures admonish us to "doubt not, but be believing" (Mormon 9:27; cf. D&C 6:36), since a doubtful heart blinds one to the things of the Spirit. As Elder Robert D. Hales noted in his October 2009 conference address, "when our outlook is dominated by skepticism, cynicism, criticism, and irreverence toward others and their beliefs, the Spirit cannot be with us."

In April 2003, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland cautioned parents against flirting with skepticism or cynicism, teaching that "in matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart." At the most recent conference, Elder Richard C. Edgley urged members to "choose faith over doubt, choose faith over fear, choose faith over the unknown and the unseen, and choose faith over pessimism," and then suggested some ways to do this.

As Joseph Smith put it in one of his last public sermons: "I never heard of a man being damned for believing too much but they are damned for unbelief" (quoted in Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 544).

I cannot think of a single issue, not polygamy, not seer-stones, not temple masonry, not the racist teachings, that speak to me more clearly and with more power that the LDS church is false than this very one.

To state that 'The Glory of God is Intelligence' and to then weed out of your membership any willingness to make use of their intellect must surely be one of the main paradoxes of Mormonism.