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One of the most important books for any LDS believer or former believer to read...

The Creation of Patriarchy by Gerda Lerner

From Library Journal
.... She seeks to show that the subordination of women is a historical (i.e., changeable) phenomenon, not a natural one. Lerner posits that division of labor by sex occurred early but that the oppression of women began with the emergence of agriculture; the domination of women, she argues, preceded and served as the foundation for the origin of private property and the state and the institutionalization of slavery. More narrowly focused and more successful than Marilyn French's Beyond Power ( LJ 6/1/85), Lerner's book will appeal to a sophisticated general reader. For large public libraries. Cynthia Harrison, American Historical Assn., Washington, D.C.

Well, I don't know if I am a sophisticated general reader, but this just went on my reading wishlist. Thanks!

Read the book a few years ago.

The writer does not support her thesis very well in my opinion. While the way property law and agricultural development worked did keep women as a subservient underclass I don't think she establishes that it was different before that. The reality is that the written records we have from the times before the writer's guess at the establishment of patriarchy are rare and I found the attempts to support her thesis weak.

I think the book does feminism and history a disservice. The desire to look back for a golden age of gender equality is understandable but the records just don't seem to establish one.

Here is another I am adding to my wishlist. Perhaps this one escapes the problem of historical anachronisms that some people claim The Creation of Patriarchy contains.

It is called Misogyny: The World's Oldest Prejudice by Jack Holland

It gets great reviews.

Thanks for the suggestion Just Me... I've put it on my reading list! :-)

Let me know what you think of TCoP if you read it!

:-)

~td~

truth dancer wrote:One of the most important books for any LDS believer or former believer to read...

The Creation of Patriarchy by Gerda Lerner

From Library Journal
.... She seeks to show that the subordination of women is a historical (i.e., changeable) phenomenon, not a natural one. Lerner posits that division of labor by sex occurred early but that the oppression of women began with the emergence of agriculture; the domination of women, she argues, preceded and served as the foundation for the origin of private property and the state and the institutionalization of slavery. More narrowly focused and more successful than Marilyn French's Beyond Power ( LJ 6/1/85), Lerner's book will appeal to a sophisticated general reader. For large public libraries. Cynthia Harrison, American Historical Assn., Washington, D.C.

Basic stuff taught in my Sociology 101 class. :)

Honestly I'm not so sure that in our current world you're not better off being a woman. Be grateful, seriously.

It's all just a question of power and being able to impose your will upon other people. Taking advantage of other people is how people best protect and improve their own quality of life.

Human beings evolved polygamist just like other apes and mammals. You may hate it. I know for every alpha male winner there are way more losers. I'm under no illusion that it was ever a happy situation for most men or women. Success in business is achieved by those most willing to cheat and take advantage of other people. I hate that too, but I have to accept the energy drop that goes up the food chain. If our ape ancestors hadn't been willing to kill to get a steady supply of meat, we'd never have developed the brains to be typing at these computers. Is that good or bad, I don't know. We can't all be happy at the same time, not in this world. That I do know.

ajax18 wrote:Honestly I'm not so sure that in our current world you're not better off being a woman. Be grateful, seriously.

I'm not sure how you'd even measure 'better off' in this sense. Your statement is kind of condescending.

It's all just a question of power and being able to impose your will upon other people. Taking advantage of other people is how people best protect and improve their own quality of life.

And become miserable as well. Actions have consequences.

Human beings evolved polygamist just like other apes and mammals. You may hate it. I know for every alpha male winner there are way more losers. I'm under no illusion that it was ever a happy situation for most men or women. Success in business is achieved by those most willing to cheat and take advantage of other people. I hate that too, but I have to accept the energy drop that goes up the food chain. If our ape ancestors hadn't been willing to kill to get a steady supply of meat, we'd never have developed the brains to be typing at these computers. Is that good or bad, I don't know. We can't all be happy at the same time, not in this world. That I do know.

That's a silly conclusion. I remember in one old sci-fi PC game you encounter an alien robotic species that analyzes how creatures evolve into sentience. After analyzing several species they identify three behaviors that lead to the leap:

a. Stealing resources from other creatures
b. Destroying other creatures in competition with you for resources
c. Breeding rapidly

This species wanted to evolve to meta-sentience (i.e. a higher state). Assuming that the same rules must apply on a more sophisticated level they created three standards of conduct to continue their evolution:

a. Slavery
b. Genocide
c. Breeding rapidly

Even if you assume (as I do not) that the most negative of human traits are what brought humanity to this point I see no sense in praising their use now or in following them to their logical conclusions.

A world ruled by women would rock!

zeezrom wrote:A world ruled by women would rock!

No, it wouldn't. This is a typical fantasy but it conjures up all the wrong images in many guy's heads.

The equivalent female-dominance to the many male-dominated cultures that have existed and continue to exist would drive most men nuts.

Let's start with the ancient scenario: Imagine a world where you are kept from education and learning to 'protect' you. Where you are married off for political or social reasons to women you've never met and may or may not love or even be attracted to. We'll say that men's strength is still seen as a slight asset and you work day in and day out on the farm or at a trade for money you don't get access to because that's not your place. You may or may not be treated well by your wife but your position of subservience is assumed by all.

Move up to not too long ago: New horizons are open to your gender but the general assumption is that you will fail. While men are legally allowed to own property and hold more 'womanly' jobs this is accepted in a patronizing way by most women in a "Mommy is very proud of you for trying" kind of way. There are men campaigning for equal rights but they are derided as wackos who burn their jockstraps in defiance of female standards for male body type (with no evidence to support this) and are campaigning for things they already have. Many are derided as misogynistic woman-haters.

Move to now in western culture: The legal barriers are all gone but the equality is not yet there. Even well-meaning women and men propagate social and cultural mores that keep men unequal. There is a 'good old girls' network in many occupations limiting male entry. Even in areas where the current women in power aren't discriminatory past discrimination results in unequal representation in the halls of power.