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Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:15 pm
by _Tad
I pulled this from someone's post on another board to get the resident apologists' view on this one. Does anyone have a good explanation for the discrepancies shown by the following scriptures, relating to the time that was to pass before the Nephites would dwindle in unbelief following Christ's visit:
- 4 Ne. 1:24-40 mentions a ~44-year period starting in the year 201 in which pride cycle started up again, until in the year 244 the majority of the people dwindled in unbelief and wickedness.
- 4 Ne 1:45 states that after three hundred years both Nephites and Lamanites had become wicked.
- Alma 45:10 states that “in four hundred years” from Christ’s coming, the Nephites would dwindle in unbelief. This could be interpreted to mean within four hundred years, but seems to me to mean after four hundred years.
- Alma 45:12 states that the iniquity shall come before the fourth generation shall all pass away.
- 2 Ne 26:9 states that the people will have peace until three generations have passed away, and many of the fourth generation have passed away in righteousness.
- 1 Ne 12:12 prophesies that many of the fourth generation would pass away in righteousness. (This and the previous two verses lead me to wonder what the duration of a generation is – compare to 4 Ne 1:22, which states that after two hundred years there were a few of the second generation still living.)
- 3 Ne 27:32 states that Jesus sorrows because of the fourth generation from the current one. It says they will be “lead away captive” by him (Satan?), which seems to conflict with previous statements about many of the fourth generation that are righteous.
Any thoughts?
Re: Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:01 pm
by _Hades
Just like today's prophets, ancient prophets sometimes spoke as men. You have to sort through it and find what works. When you find the prophet that nailed it, then he's the one who was speaking as a prophet. If none of them works, then Joseph may have been translating as a man and botched some of the translation. I know this can all be confusing, so just have faith. Faith takes care of all problems like these.
Re: Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:03 pm
by _Fence Sitter
Also wasn't the point to killing Laben so the people would not dwindle in unbelief?
Re: Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:20 pm
by _Buffalo
Fence Sitter wrote:Also wasn't the point to killing Laben so the people would not dwindle in unbelief?
Oops! Joke's on you, Nephi! You murdered a man for nothing.
Re: Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:13 am
by _bcspace
Any thoughts?
Doesn't seem to be a problem. In 1 Nephi 12:12, the first three generations are righteous but the fourth is distinguished by "many". "Many" could be righteous but that description works whether they are in the majority or not. There are many Catholics in Utah, but certainly not as many as there are Mormons, etc.
Re: Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:55 pm
by _Tad
The biggest discrepancy seems to be the ~150 year difference between when the dwindling was prophesied to happen (400 years following Christ's visit) and when it actually happened (244 years following his visit). Perhaps it's not a big deal, but then why make such a specific prophecy in the first place?
Re: Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:55 pm
by _bcspace
There could be no discrepency at all depending on what is meant by "dwindling". There was always a chance until Mormon and 130,000 of his followers, if not more, were utterly defeated and destroyed.
It just seems to me like an extreme case of camel-swallowing to worry about such things.
Re: Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:26 pm
by _truth dancer
Hey BC,
There could be no discrepancy at all depending on what is meant by "dwindling". There was always a chance until Mormon and 130,000 of his followers, if not more, were utterly defeated and destroyed.
Hold the phone...
I thought apologists were united in their stance that the "Nephites," at most numbered around 1,000 folk. You know, just a tiny group of people hidden amongst the Maya?
(Brant Gardner stated this and DCP agreed).
~td~
Re: Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:34 pm
by _Tad
It just seems to me like an extreme case of camel-swallowing to worry about such things.
Perhaps.
There could be no discrepancy at all depending on what is meant by "dwindling".
In the spirit of taking the Book of Mormon at it's word, evaluating what the text actually says, as opposed to what we might try to read into it (case in point, the recent change to the chapter heading for Alma 11 (nephite "coinage" vs. "monetary system")), please consider:
4 Nephi 1:40
"And it came to pass that two hundred and forty and four years had passed away, and thus were the affairs of the people. And the more wicked part of the people did wax strong, and became exceedingly more numerous than were the people of God."
4 Nephi 1:44
"And from this time the disciples began to sorrow for the sins of the world."
This seems like a pretty good milestone for the official start of the dwindling in unbelief. And then:
4 Nephi 1:45
"And it came to pass that when three hundred years had passed away, both the people of Nephi and the Lamanites had become exceedingly wicked one like unto another."
Now we have population-wide dwindling. Still less than the 400 years that was prophesied. Maybe this is a molehill among other mountainous issues. I still wonder why there is not more internal consistency in the text with regard to this prophecy.
Re: Book of Mormon: Time to Dwindling in Unbelief
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:10 pm
by _Inconceivable
You would think that a God that sees that his presence is necessary in order for belief, tranquility and happiness to survive would not leave and let out their responsibility to mere mortal husbandmen.
It doesn't work. And they tell us it will happen but will do nothing to circumvent it like the Mormon Jesus did for/to the people during that time he was predicting it? Why are the children of the fourth generation any less valuable than the ones the Mormon Jesus spoke "unspeakable" things to and surrounded with his angels?
fail.
If you're willing to predict a trainwreck and then do nothing to see that it can be avoided, you are nothing but a rubbernecking heartless voyer.