Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

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_Daniel Peterson
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Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Down in the “Terrestrial Forum,” in a discussion on the term anti-Mormon, I’m quoted as saying

Mere disagreement with x does not make you anti-x. I disagree with existentialism. But I lose very little sleep over it, and only give the subject about sixty seconds' thought every year or so. Thus, it would be ludicrous to describe me as an "anti-existentialist." So, likewise, with literally hundreds of possible positions and ideologies. I disagree with -- oh, let's see -- Keynesian economics, poststructuralism, Sikhism, predeterminism, Freudian psychoanalysis, revisionist theories of the Kennedy assassination, and technical analysis of the stock market. But since I do not campaign or crusade against any of these, it would be very implausible to call me, say, an anti-Sikh or an anti-Keynesian.

In response to that quotation, one poster objected to my use of existentialism as an example, declaring that the idea of opposing existentialism is nonsensical and that, because of this latest laughable instance of what he likes to portray as my essentially perpetual stupidity and incompetence, there is no point in paying attention to anything that I say. As examples of opposition to existentialism, however, I offer a whole panoply of Marxists (e.g., Theodor Adorno and Herbert Marcuse), as well as Martin Heidegger and logical positivists such as Rudolf Carnap and A. J. Ayer. To the extent that they spent time and effort writing to criticize central existentialist ideas, I see nothing at all wrong with terming them “anti-existentialists.”

(Incidentally, I'm actually fond of certain existentialists or existentialist fellow travelers, and have, in some years, given them much more than sixty seconds of thought. I like Berdyaev a lot, and have spent a fair amount of time in the past reading Nietzsche especially, but also Jaspers, Buber, and Kierkegaard. In each case, I see much to like. So, once again, calling me an "anti-existentialist" would be a bit weird.)

Another poster observes, with regard to my quoted comment above, that “it is problematic to define the threshold as having sufficient passion about the subject to keep one up once in a while and giving the subject more than sixty-seconds' thought in a year.”

I agree.

But, of course, I said nothing about a “threshold” and offered no such definition. If I had to choose a “threshold,” it would, among other things, be far above “losing sleep” (a metaphor for caring with some substantial degree of intensity) and many light years above devoting sixty seconds per annum. But it would also allude to the element of opposition, which is essential to the concept of “being anti-something.” My point was that, given my not caring much at all about something, calling me anti-that-something would be quite implausible. I’m substantially below any reasonable “threshold” for applying such a label.

One can lose sleep over (i.e., care about) and devote substantial time to many things (e.g., the solution to Fermat’s theorem, establishing a new branch of the family firm in Belgium, helping a child learn baseball, improving Pakistani schools) without being deeply opposed to them or even opposed to them at all. But someone’s devoting little or no time to x, and not caring about x, seems to make it less plausible to call that person “anti-x.” To be “anti-x” is merely to be “opposed to x.” Caring about x, devoting at least some measure of time and/or energy to x, is not sufficient to make one anti-x, but it’s certainly necessary to make one such.

I do not use the term anti-Mormon “as a power play” (any more than my use of the terms anti-coagulant, antacid, anti-bacterial or anti-lock brakes is “a power play”). It is not a way for me “to reduce a person to something ‘other,’” any more than my use of the terms anti-Masonic, anti-Catholic, anti-abortion, anti-Communist, anti-Semitic, and anti-Mubarak is a method of denigrating those to whom I apply them. (I happen to consider myself anti-Communist and anti-abortion, and I was pretty much anti-Mubarak.)

I use the prefix anti- merely to indicate opposition. Nothing more, nothing less. Such opposition can be good or bad.

Though I disapprove of anti-Mormonism and do not think it a positive thing – not because of the prefix anti-, which is neutral, but because I consider Mormonism a good, opposition to which is misguided – I can easily imagine worse things, and am acutely aware of worse things. My use of the term is defensible, I think, because it's essentially dispassionate.

For those wondering: I see the Tanners and Ed Decker as anti-Mormons, but would not label Mike Quinn or Dan Vogel as such.
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _Buffalo »

Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _Buffalo »

Daniel Peterson wrote:"Perhaps the best approach would be to apply to each group the name that its adherents use in referring to themselves."


:)
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Dan,

Give me 3 ideas that link all Existentialists into a cohesive body.

ETA: For the love of all that is holy Dan:

Daniel Peterson wrote:As examples of opposition to existentialism, however, I offer a whole panoply of Marxists (e.g., Theodor Adorno and Herbert Marcuse), as well as Martin Heidegger...


Heidegger is part of the Existentialist canon and just because Carnap didn’t like Sartre’s Ontology, doesn’t mean he is a anti-Existentialist.
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Here is a part of the preface to Robert Solomon's work entitled "Existentialism"

Image


Heidegger is listed as one of the "big four", this is pretty commonly accepted and there is no excuse for anyone to cite his name as an example of "anti-existentialism" who has ever made a decent study of the subject at hand.


ETA: By "decent" I mean "basic".
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

MrStakhanovite wrote:Dan,Give me 3 ideas that link all Existentialists into a cohesive body.

Your quarrel isn't with me. It's with all the folks (apparently fools, on your showing) who write books and articles and compose encyclopedia entries and teach classes on the chimera that everybody but you, it seems, calls "existentialism."

MrStakhanovite wrote:For the love of all that is holy Dan:

Do you believe that anything is holy?

MrStakhanovite wrote:Heidegger is part of the Existentialist canon

I'm well aware of that.

But, if you're really trying to refute me by denying that there is any reified "thing" called "existentialism," how can you possibly say it?

In any event, he was critical of central aspects of what is typically called "existentialism" in other authors who are typically labeled "existentialists."

MrStakhanovite wrote:just because Carnap didn’t like Sartre’s Ontology, doesn’t mean he is a anti-Existentialist.

I don't use the term for him, but, in that specific area, would not find it inappropriate if somebody else did.
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Buffalo wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:"Perhaps the best approach would be to apply to each group the name that its adherents use in referring to themselves."


:)

I have no problem whatever with this, in several regards.

But it's actually helpful to refer to adherents of intelligent design, for instance, as "anti-Darwinists," and to pro-life demonstrators as "anti-abortion," and to certain leaders of the French Revolution as "anti-Catholic."

Such references don't exhaust what they were or are, and other designators may be useful and even, in many or most circumstances, preferable, but there's nothing wrong with using the "anti-" descriptors. They add information and specificity, which I see as, on balance, a good thing.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Your quarrel isn't with me.


Oh, yes it is. It has everything to do with what you say, and your attempts to disown the things you say in hindsight.

MrStakhanovite wrote:Heidegger is part of the Existentialist canon


Daniel Peterson wrote:I'm well aware of that.


Well, you really pulled the wool over my eyes Dan, when you listed him as an example of opposition to existentialism:

Daniel Peterson wrote:As examples of opposition to existentialism, however, I offer a whole panoply of Marxists (e.g., Theodor Adorno and Herbert Marcuse), as well as Martin Heidegger and logical positivists such as Rudolf Carnap and A. J. Ayer. To the extent that they spent time and effort writing to criticize central existentialist ideas, I see nothing at all wrong with terming them “anti-existentialists.”


Your words.

Daniel Peterson wrote:But, if you're really trying to refute me by denying that there is any reified "thing" called "existentialism," how can you possibly say it?


Being “anti-existentialism” is like being “anti-epistemology” or “anti-logic”. It isn’t a school of thought, it isn’t a method, and it isn’t a style. It’s a broad range of topics with a broad range of contradictory ideas.

Using Heidegger being critical of another existentialist as an example of “anti-existentialism” is like me using William Alston’s critiques of W.V. Quine as an example of Alston being “anti-epistemology.” It’s beyond silly.

So yes, given what has transpired in this thread, I stand by my comments made in the lower fora.
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:Your quarrel isn't with me.

Oh, yes it is.

No. It's not. I find your notion that existentialism is more like a philosophical subdiscipline (e.g., ethics, ontology, epistemology, or metaphysics) than a more or less broad and even sometimes very disparate philosophical movement linked by, at a minimum, Wittgensteinian Familienähnlichkeiten (e.g., like Platonism, Neoplatonism, Thomism, Kantianism, or logical positivism) novel -- but only because it's odd and silly.

MrStakhanovite wrote:Well, you really pulled the wool over my eyes Dan

Apparently so.

That's fine. I've been well aware of Heidegger, Sein, and Dasein since many years, I suspect, before you sneered your first contemptuous sneer. I may have bought my copy of Sein und Zeit quite a while before you were even born.

MrStakhanovite wrote: I stand by my comments made in the lower fora.

No doubt.

Incidentally, just so you know, I regard your idea that my faith, and that of many of my family and friends, is based on selfish egoism as absurd and fundamentally . . . well, this is the "Celestial Forum."
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Re: Peterson Speaks for Himself on "Anti-Mormonism"

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Daniel Peterson wrote:No. It's not. I find your notion that existentialism is more like a philosophical subdiscipline (e.g., ethics, ontology, epistemology, or metaphysics) than a more or less broad and even sometimes very disparate philosophical movement linked by, at a minimum, Wittgensteinian Familienähnlichkeiten (e.g., like Platonism, Neoplatonism, Thomism, Kantianism, or logical positivism) novel -- but only because it's odd and silly.


Thankfully, your writings have made me distrust your philosophical acumen, so I’m on a good track. I’m more than able to defend this odd and silly notion, if you care to find out.

Daniel Peterson wrote:Apparently so.

That's fine. I've been well aware of Heidegger, Sein, and Dasein since many years, I suspect, before you sneered your first contemptuous sneer. I may have bought my copy of Sein und Zeit quite a while before you were even born.


No doubt you’ve been teaching unruly undergrad sophomores like myself before I was born (1983). But, what does your age or the date you bought a book have to do with a basic error on your part? None of this explains why you listed Martin Heidegger as an example of opposition to existentialism.


Daniel Peterson wrote:Incidentally, just so you know, I regard your idea that my faith, and that of many of my family and friends, is based on selfish egoism as absurd and fundamentally . . . well, this is the "Celestial Forum."


You are more than welcome to challenge me on it.
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