Do you REALLY know?

[_Ceeboo]

Good morning all,

For those of you who used to be devout LDS and are now no longer LDS:

You once 'knew' the LDS Church was true. Yes?
You now 'know' the LDS Church is not true. Yes?

What makes you more confident about what you 'know' now then what you used to 'know'?
And is it possible that what you 'know' now will change again?

Thanks and peace,
Ceeboo

[_Ray A]

Good morning all,

For those of you who used to be devout LDS and are now no longer LDS:

You once 'knew' the LDS Church was true. Yes?
You now 'know' the LDS Church is not true. Yes?

What makes you more confident about what you 'know' now then what you used to 'know'?
And is it possible that what you 'know' now will change again?

Let's put this in another context. I once knew that my wife was true. After divorce I knew that she wasn't true, or "it seemed like a good thing at the time, but....". I once felt that the Catholic Church was true, particularly when growing up on the stories of Saints' lives (any Catholics remember Dominic Savio?) In that sense truth really is relative. Is there something larger than that "truth"? I think so. We always hear that the Church is a "vehicle", and Jesus Christ is the "driver". So does that make the vehicle "true"? Is the Church going to exist in eternity? I think not.

Note Ronald Poelman's edited 1984 Conference talk, and the edited out reference to the Church being "a divine institution", and an "institutional resource". Are there other "institutional resources" every bit as true to those who believe it? Yes. The term "I know the Church is true" is also often a testimonial platitude which isn't given much thought. Do they know the Church is as true as solar power? Gravity? Plate tectonics? So you'd have to define "know" and "truth", and think about what we really know, regardless of what is professed.

Was the Law of Moses true? For ancient and modern Jews it was and is. Is it true for Mormons? The answer should be obvious. It was a "shadow of things to come", and such is the Church. I believe the Book of Mormon has truth (not absolute, or morphed interpretations like D&C 19 wouldn't have emerged, where we are basically told, "just kidding", God's punishment isn't really eternal). So that's why it's possible to "outgrow" formerly cherished "truth".

I do not "know" that the LDS Church is "not true". What I do know is that for many it works, and for them it is therefore "true".

Can what I now "know" change? It happens all the time. I don't expect my knowledge of gravity to change, nor my expectation that the sun will rise tomorrow, nor that we share some 99% of our genes with chimpanzees, but I could do some rethinking about wormholes and God questions, often referred to as the "big questions".

[_Buffalo]

Good morning all,

For those of you who used to be devout LDS and are now no longer LDS:

You once 'knew' the LDS Church was true. Yes?
You now 'know' the LDS Church is not true. Yes?

What makes you more confident about what you 'know' now then what you used to 'know'?
And is it possible that what you 'know' now will change again?

Thanks and peace,
Ceeboo

I didn't know then and I don't know now.

Before it was "I believe because I felt such and such."

Now it's, "I don't believe because of the following facts."

[_Hades]

My beliefs didn't change as much as you might think.

When I was TBM I believed that the Book of Mormon was translated from gold plates using the urim and thummim. I did not believe that God gives revelation through seer stones placed in the bottom of hats.

I believed that the Book of Abraham was translated from words actually written by Abraham, not from an Egyptian pagan document.

I believed that polygamy was a holy practice restored in the latter days. I did not believe that God gave other men's wives and 14 year old daughters away to the prophet.

I found out that the Mormon God was not the same God I believed in. I would have had to change my beliefs to remain a Mormon.

[_Fence Sitter]

Ceeboo my friend,

I don't think I know what it means to 'know' something but here are my answers to your questions.

I do not believe I ever knew the church was true. I do not believe that I now know it is false; however I do not see compelling reasons to believe it to be any truer than most other religions. This is perhaps the biggest problem I have with religion in general. The manner in which one is supposed to confirm personal religious views seems so subjective and the result so predictable that in the end I believe it only confirms that which was sought after to begin with.

The only thing I am more confident about what I know now is that I did not understand what I used to know. I believe that this trend will continue until I fully understand that I really knew nothing at all, or my death, whichever comes first.

[_Tchild]

Good morning all,

For those of you who used to be devout LDS and are now no longer LDS:

You once 'knew' the LDS Church was true. Yes?
You now 'know' the LDS Church is not true. Yes?

What makes you more confident about what you 'know' now then what you used to 'know'?
And is it possible that what you 'know' now will change again?

Thanks and peace,
Ceeboo

Well, what did we as believers really "know"? I for one was born into the religion and accepted the narrative and how the narrative was to be interpreted -- as shaped by LDS teachings -- uncritically.

I am not sure of much, but that the LDS church is "true" as factually claimed; first vision, Book of Mormon as a literal historical telling of the Americas, resurrected visitors conferring the priesthood and the church having an exclusive "prophet" being directed by God exclusively to run his (God's) church... never surer of anything in my life, EVER.

Besides, Mormon belief is such that denying the LDS version of the gospel leaves one without a chance to accept it in the next life.

So, basically, I am confident enough to stake my savlation and exaltation for time and all eternity that the LDS church is not what it claims it is.

Does it have "truth"? Is it Christian? Will its teachings lead a person to God (whatever that God is, and if that God indeed exists)? Sure, but it is not exclusive, trademarked, copyrighted or controlled by LDS leaders. It is just a path for some, nothing more.

[_keithb]

When I was married, I knew that my marriage was true and good. When I found out that my wife was cheating on me, I realized that my assumption was mistaken. I further realized that my subjective emotional experiences with her were not an adequate method for discerning the truth of whether or not she loved me.

When I was a TBM, I knew that the Mormon church, Jesus, etc. were true and good. When I found out the truth about the Book of Mormon genetic, Book of Abraham translation, global flood, evolution, etc., I realized that my assumptions were mistaken. I further realized that my subjective emotional experiences with the church were not an adequate method for discerning the whether or not the claims of the church are true.

I don't know that the church isn't true. I only know about the evidence that I've been presented. If they found the Gold Plates and found tomorrow and found that they were translated correctly, I would have to reevaluate my current stance (one of disbelief). Similarly, if I found evidence that my ex-wife was in the employment of the CIA and had no choice but to cheat on me, I would reevaluate my conclusions about her.

I am not holding my breath for either to happen.

[_Kishkumen]

I think my answer is roughly the same as others' answers. How I would put it, though, is that my interpretation of my experiences changed over time. Whereas once I felt like the LDS Church and Gospel had the answers and the way to eternal happiness, over time I came to feel and believe differently. It was a process of years of growth and change.

I think a lot of people come to a point in their lives where they see all is not as they once thought, and they can choose to change course or continue on the same road with their new understanding of things. If I had been a happier LDS person, or if I had really believed in the "only true church" sense, then I might have continued on. In the end, my conviction that Mormonism did not represent the Truth coalesced with my realization that I didn't really enjoy most of my experience in church, and the result was that I quit going.

I can see someone who enjoys the culture continuing on in spite of knowing it is not the Truth. I can also see someone who does not enjoy the culture continuing on because they believe it is the Truth. But, the combination of realizing it it not the Truth and accepting that you don't really like it anyway is fatal to continued participation. At that point, you have to ask yourself: why on earth am I doing this? The solution is simple, if not "easy."

[_Joseph]

I really know that a black football coach was dumped at BYU this past season.
I really know that a boack basketball player has been dumped at BYU this season.

Some things never change at BYU.

[_Pollypinks]

As we grow we mature, at least we hope to. My belief in the church was based on fear. Fear that if I didn't perform well enough I'd be without my loved ones when I died. Fear that if I didn't tithe properly I'd be denied a temple recommend. Fear that God would be disappointed in me if I turned down a calling. Once I reached a point in my life where I realized God would not be disappointed in me in any of the above areas, I slowly began having inward feelings that caused my family concern. God is perfect. Yes? Why then, make 3/4 of his children to fail. Why the need to "plant the seed" through dirty old men marrying young teen girls, and the wives of other men? Couldn't God do just about anything he wanted without having to sacrifice the virtue of good women? I believe God is perfect, and always intended for all his children to return to him, hence, the plethora of scriptural references to all man's salvation through out the Bible. I believe the Bible is not inerrant, because you cannot translate something, the KJV, over 500 times since 1611 and come up with something perfect, especially where Greek and Hebrew contexts are concerned. Women in the church blindly follow along without ever really reading the scriptures and examining them, because they have the priesthood to do that for them, and I have a problem with that. It's been a fabulous journey just to find out some things for myself, and, to come to a place of peace at long last, where I was not before.