Daniel Peterson - question on your article on the Witnesses

[_LDS truthseeker]

I enjoyed your article on The Witnesses from the Feb 26 Mormon Times. I appreciate that you at least acknowledged it was possible to ‘dupe’ the eight witnesses with a prop and you concentrated on the 3 witnesses who claimed to have seen the angel which is much more spectacular and difficult to fake.

I am wondering about the following statement you made. You state “When the design of the Kirtland Temple was revealed, that little known but quite spectacular revelation came to the entire First Presidency of the Church (Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams) as they met together.”

I have always heard this story but that the revelation was only witnessed by Joseph and Sidney. Did Frederick G. Williams also claim to have seen the same vision that Joseph and Sidney did? Can you ellaborate on this event please? Thanks

[_Fence Sitter]

Does anyone have a link to this article?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Yes, Frederick G. Williams was also there. I've read the account in Lyndon Cook's book on the revelations of Joseph Smith. I don't know whether any account is on line.

Here's a link to the article:

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/1983 ... xperiences

[_LDS truthseeker]

Yes, Frederick G. Williams was also there. I've read the account in Lyndon Cook's book on the revelations of Joseph Smith. I don't know whether any account is on line.

But did he also claim to see what Joseph and Sidney Rigdon saw or was he just in the same room like Philo Dibble?

And speaking of Philo Dibble. You state further in your article that other people in the room like Phil Dibble did not see the vision Joseph and Sidney had. He seemed to have only ‘felt’ the power by listening to Joseph and Sidney. (Perhaps not unlike listening to a great speaker delivering a powerful message.) So this seems just a tad suspicious. I mean if I was in a room and two people (that some critics say were in cahoots) go on and on about a vision they were claiming to see and you don’t see what they see, wouldn’t that cast some doubt on the vision?

[_Daniel Peterson]

If one is determined to explain the visions away, one can do it.

Unless one is convinced a priori that veridical visions don't occur, however, the most commonsensical way of reading these accounts is to assume that they reflect actually occurring visions of some sort.

Yes, I believe that Frederick G. Williams claims to have seen the same thing. But I don't have my sources near at hand right now.

[_Fence Sitter]

Truthseeker,

I think there are many examples of public visions that were not seen by all present. For example, how did Moroni visit Joseph Smith Jr three times in one night in a small cabin with lots of other people sleeping nearby and not wake everyone else up? I do not recall all the details but there is one instance where Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (I think it was Rigdon) saw Christ while both were with a group of other people. After which Joseph remarked that "Brother Rigdon is not as used to this as much as I am". I do not believe anyone else saw Christ in this instance. I'll see if I can find a reference for it and get the details straight. The transfiguration of Brigham Young seems to have been reported by some of the attendees but not all. I believe the explanation that some witnessed an event and others did not, usually is that the 'veil' was removed from the eyes of those that saw it.

While I do not know, I would expect these phenomena of selective witnesses within a larger group would not be peculiar to just the Church.

Dan thanks for the link, I look forward to reading it.

[_LDS truthseeker]

Truthseeker,

I think there are many examples of public visions that were not seen by all present. For example, how did Moroni visit Joseph Smith Jr three times in one night in a small cabin with lots of other people sleeping nearby and not wake everyone else up? I do not recall all the details but there is one instance where Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (I think it was Rigdon) saw Christ while both were with a group of other people. After which Joseph remarked that "Brother Rigdon is not as used to this as much as I am". I do not believe anyone else saw Christ in this instance. I'll see if I can find a reference for it and get the details straight. The transfiguration of Brigham Young seems to have been reported by some of the attendees but not all. I believe the explanation that some witnessed an event and others did not, usually is that the 'veil' was removed from the eyes of those that saw it.

While I do not know, I would expect these phenomena of selective witnesses within a larger group would not be peculiar to just the Church.

Here's the account you mentioned:


Joseph would, at intervals, say: ‘What do I see?’ Then he would relate what he had seen or what he was looking at. Then Sidney replied, ‘I see the same.’ Presently Sidney would say, ‘What do I see?’ and would repeat what he had seen or was seeing, and Joseph would reply, ‘I see the same.’ This manner of conversation was repeated at short intervals to the end of the vision, and during the whole time not a word was spoken by any other person. Not a sound nor motion made by anyone but Joseph and Sidney, and it seemed to me that they never moved a joint or limb during the time I was there, which I think was over an hour, and to the end of the vision. Joseph sat firmly and calmly all the time in the midst of a magnificent glory, but Sidney sat limp and pale, apparently as limber as a rag, observing which Joseph remarked, smilingly, ‘Sidney is not used to it as I am.

http://www.believeallthings.com/3412/ph ... ees-glory/


Yes, that's a good point you bring up on Moroni's visit. That should be subject to the same scrutiny as well.

The question is if people see things in their mind that other people don't, are they real? There are of course many, many instances of them not being real such as hallucinations, drug induced visions, metally ill people and simply old age. I've witnessed my aged dad seeing things that weren't there (cars in the room and other stuff that didn't make sense).

Uri Geller, the famed physic and con artist claimed to see UFOs while other people with him could not. The gullible believed he could see in some sort of dimesion they couldn't. The skeptics said he was lying.

Now what would a camera have seen if it was filming the visions Joseph and Sidney claimed to have had? And what would a camera have recorded if it was in Joseph's room the night he had his Moroni vision? I suspect it would show a boy sleeping soundly away.

[_Fence Sitter]

Dan,

"But hallucination can't account for the non-visionary, matter-of-fact realism of the Eight Witnesses' examination — and "hefting" — of the plates in broad daylight."


What do we know about the weight of the plates as described by those that handled them?

[_Daniel Peterson]

What do we know about the weight of the plates as described by those that handled them?

Ca. 60 lbs. is the most commonly recurring estimate.

[_why me]

When one looks at John Whitmer and how he related what he saw and felt with is hands to a group of antimormons one can not help feel that he did not see props. He saw much more than a prop. As we can see from people on this forum, one can lose their experiences and testimonies. For the eight witnesses to have seen just a prop would most likely lead to at least two of them not just falling away but also to rationalization stories of their experiences. We see this on this forum all the time. The witnesses would be no different if they did not see something powerful and experience something supernatural.