DCP - Your Mormon Times article with Thomas Marsh

[_LDS truthseeker]

Daniel Peterson, in your March 12, Mormon Times article “Observing weakness with charity” you state the following:

“In our dispensation, Thomas Marsh became so preoccupied with Joseph Smith’s perceived imperfections that he forfeited his apostleship and was excommunicated in 1839.”

That is misleading. Why don’t you put the other, real reasons Marsh became dissatisfied with Joseph? Here’s the rest of the story you left out. From Wikipedia:

In April 1838, Church President Joseph Smith and his first counselor Sidney Rigdon moved to Far West, which became the new church headquarters. Although disfellowshipped, David and John Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, W.W. Phelps and other former leaders (who were known as the "dissenters") continued to live in the county. By early June, some of the more zealous Mormons, led by Sampson Avard, formed a society which came to be known as the "Danites." According to Marsh, these men swore oaths to "support the heads of the church in all things that they say or do, whether right or wrong". According to Reed Peck, two of these Danites, Jared Carter and Dimick B. Huntington, proposed at a meeting that the society should kill the dissenters. Marsh and fellow moderate, John Corrill, spoke vigorously against the motion. On the following Sunday, however, Sidney Rigdon issued his "Salt Sermon" in which he likened the dissenters to salt that had lost its savor and was "good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men". Within a week the dissenters had fled the county.

Although he may have been concerned about these events, Marsh remained in the church until late October. According to his sworn testimony, Marsh claimed that a Mormon invasion of Daviess County and the subsequent looting and burning of non-Mormon settlements, including Gallatin, the county seat, were the acts that caused him to leave. Marsh stated:

"A company of about eighty of the Mormons, commanded by a man fictitiously named Captain Fearnot [David W. Patten], marched to Gallatin. They returned and said they had run off from Gallatin twenty or thirty men and had taken Gallatin, had taken one prisoner and another had joined the company. I afterwards learned from the Mormons that they had burned Gallatin, and that it was done by the aforesaid company that marched there. The Mormons informed me that they had hauled away all the goods from the store in Gallatin, and deposited them at the Bishop's storehouses at Adam-ondi-Ahmon”

On October 19, 1838, the day after Gallatin was burned, Thomas B. Marsh and fellow apostle Orson Hyde left the association of the Church. Marsh drafted and signed a legal affidavit against Joseph Smith on October 24, 1838, which Hyde also signed. In addition to reporting on the organization of the Danites and on the events in Daviess County, Marsh reported rumors that the Danites had set up a "destroying company" and that "if the people of Clay & Ray made any movement against them, this destroying company was to burn Liberty & Richmond." He further stated his belief that Joseph Smith planned "to take the State, & he professes to his people to intend taking the U.S. & ultimately the whole world". Marsh's testimony added to the panic in northwestern Missouri and contributed to subsequent events in the Mormon War.

Because a Mormon attack was believed imminent, a unit of the state militia from Ray County was dispatched to patrol the border between Ray and Mormon Caldwell County to the north. On October 25, 1838, reports reached Mormons in Far West that this state militia unit was a "mob" and had kidnapped several Mormons. The Mormons formed an armed rescue party and attacked the militia in what became known as the Battle of Crooked River. Although only one Missourian was killed, initial reports held that half the unit had been wiped out. This attack on the state militia, coupled with the earlier expulsion of non-Mormons from Daviess County led Missouri's governor Lilburn W. Boggs to respond with force. On October 27 he called out 2,500 state militia to put down what he perceived as a Mormon rebellion and signed Missouri Executive Order 44, which became known as the "Extermination Order"

Marsh was excommunicated from the Church in absentia on March 17, 1839 in Quincy, Illinois.

After Marsh moved to Utah and rejoined the Latter-day Saints, he looked back at his decision to leave the Church with regret, recanting the 1838 affidavit. Concerning his actions in Missouri, he wrote:

"About this time I got a beam in my eye and thought I could discover a mote in Joseph's eye, though it was nothing but a beam in my eye; I was so completely darkened that I did not think on the Savior's injunction: 'Thou hypocrite, why beholdest thou the mote which is in thy brother's eye, when a beam is in thine own eye; first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, then thou shalt see clearly to get the mote out of thy brother's eye'."

The year before Marsh rejoined the church, George A. Smith claimed in a sermon on April 6, 1856, that Marsh had left the church because of a dispute between his wife and other Mormon women over a milk cow, which had escalated all the way up to the First Presidency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_B._Marsh

Daniel, don’t you think you should have mentioned the other reasons Marsh left the association of the Church such as the looting and burning of non-Mormon settlements?

At least you didn’t mention the milk strippings. There’s still some hope for you.

[_stemelbow]

Daniel, don’t you think you should have mentioned the other reasons Marsh left the association of the Church such as the looting and burning of non-Mormon settlements?

At least you didn’t mention the milk strippings. There’s still some hope for you.

Didn't Marsh himself recant his own previously stated reasons for leaving and replaced them with his correction of he left because he was "so preoccupied with Joseph Smith’s perceived imperfections that he forfeited his apostleship and was excommunicated in 1839."

He did say, after: "About this time I got a beam in my eye and thought I could discover a mote in Joseph's eye, though it was nothing but a beam in my eye; I was so completely darkened that I did not think on the Savior's injunction: 'Thou hypocrite, why beholdest thou the mote which is in thy brother's eye, when a beam is in thine own eye; first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, then thou shalt see clearly to get the mote out of thy brother's eye'."

[_LDS truthseeker]

Daniel, don’t you think you should have mentioned the other reasons Marsh left the association of the Church such as the looting and burning of non-Mormon settlements?

At least you didn’t mention the milk strippings. There’s still some hope for you.

Didn't Marsh himself recant his own previously stated reasons for leaving and replaced them with his correction of he left because he was "so preoccupied with Joseph Smith’s perceived imperfections that he forfeited his apostleship and was excommunicated in 1839."

He did say, after: "About this time I got a beam in my eye and thought I could discover a mote in Joseph's eye, though it was nothing but a beam in my eye; I was so completely darkened that I did not think on the Savior's injunction: 'Thou hypocrite, why beholdest thou the mote which is in thy brother's eye, when a beam is in thine own eye; first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, then thou shalt see clearly to get the mote out of thy brother's eye'."

I don't know that he recanted them. He probably wanted to rejoin the church for any number of reasons and said something humbling that the brethren would like and let him back in. But Brigham Young then took the oportunity to publicly berate the man:

"I presume that Brother Marsh will take no offen[s]e if I talk a little about him. We have manifested our feelings towards him, and we know his situation. With regard to this Church’s being reconciled to him, I can say that this Church and people were never dissatisfied with him; for when men and women apostatize and go from us, we have nothing to do with them. If they do that which is evil, they will suffer for it. Brother Marsh has suffered….

He has told you that he is an old man. Do you think that I am an old man? I could prove to this congregation that I am young; for I could find more girls who would choose me for a husband than can any of the young men. Brother Thomas considers himself very aged and infirm, and you can see that he is, brethren and sisters. What is the cause of it? He left the Gospel of salvation. What do you think the difference is between his age and mine? One year and seven months to a day; and he is one year, seven months, and fourteen days older than brother Heber C. Kimball. “Mormonism” keeps men and women young and handsome; and when they are full of the Spirit of God, there are none of them but what will have a glow upon their countenances; and that is what makes you and me young; for the Spirit of God is with us and within us.

When Brother Thomas thought of returning to the Church, the plurality of wives troubled him a good deal. Look at him. Do you think it need to? I do not; for I doubt whether he could get one wife. Why it should have troubled an infirm old man like him is not for me to say."

JOD 5:210

[_stemelbow]

I don't know that he recanted them. He probably wanted to rejoin the church for any number of reasons and said something humbling that the brethren would like and let him back in. But Brigham Young then took the oportunity to publicly berate the man:

What the garbage? So was this a set up to complain about BY? I take Marsh's word for it, and apparently so did DCP. He said the reason he left was "nothing but a beam in my eye". You wish it was different it seems. I cna't help ya on that.

[_LDS truthseeker]

I don't know that he recanted them. He probably wanted to rejoin the church for any number of reasons and said something humbling that the brethren would like and let him back in. But Brigham Young then took the oportunity to publicly berate the man:

What the garbage? So was this a set up to complain about BY? I take Marsh's word for it, and apparently so did DCP. He said the reason he left was "nothing but a beam in my eye". You wish it was different it seems. I cna't help ya on that.

No, but I don't think it was right for DCP to ignore Marsh's complaints about the Gallatin burning and looting and act as if Marsh's sole reason for leaving the church was his preoccupation with Joseph's imperfections.

And Brigham Young's comments are certainly worthy of discussion as well - particularly given the topic of DCP's article "Observing weakness with Charity". Brigham responded to Marsh's contrite humbleness not with charity but with unkindness.

[_stemelbow]

No, but I don't think it was right for DCP to ignore Marsh's complaints about the Gallatin burning and looting and act as if Marsh's sole reason for leaving the church was his preoccupation with Joseph's imperfections.

In the end that was the reason Marsh gave for his leaving. he said it was "nothing but a beam in my eye".

[/quote]And Brigham Young's comments are certainly worthy of discussion as well - particularly given the topic of DCP's article "Observing weakness with Charity". Brigham responded to Marsh's contrite humbleness not with charity but with unkindness.[/quote]

Then talk about it. But I answered your question, and we can wait to see if DCP has anything else to add.

[_LDS truthseeker]

And Brigham Young's comments are certainly worthy of discussion as well - particularly given the topic of DCP's article "Observing weakness with Charity". Brigham responded to Marsh's contrite humbleness not with charity but with unkindness.

Then talk about it. But I answered your question, and we can wait to see if DCP has anything else to add.


OK, do you think it was right for Brigham to make fun of this man when he came back into the church, especially in the humbling way Marsh came back. Was this a lesson for others not to come back or possibly to never leave in the first place or face Brigham's wrath if they return?