Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community Continued

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_Droopy
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Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Droopy »

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord (Isaiah 55:8 ).


A further, deeper, and more fully rounded discussion of the proper understanding of gospel welfare principles, as taught in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, is clearly necessary, as a wide and deep gorge has, it would appear, opened between some members as to the proper and appropriate conception of the concept "welfare" and just how the Church and its people are to negotiate that concept, especially as compared and contrasted with certain alternative secular belief systems, or variations of them, claiming similar priorities and concerns.

I will not, as I do not have David's expertise in Near Eastern studies and most certainly cannot read biblical Hebrew, concentrate upon scriptural prooftexting or the use of scripture, to any great extent, as the sources of my core propositions here, save to the extent they will be used as supporting material for assertions made as drawn from the writings, teachings, and counsel of the modern, contemporary living oracles of the Lord Jesus Christ in our day. The emphasis will be upon the inspired teachings of the living prophets and special witnesses, with scripture used to reinforce and substantiate their words.

I will use only teachings of the General Authorities of the Church as published in official Church sources (nothing from Deseret Book or such, even if the material is duplicated there), and which is neither obscure or cryptic. What I want to emphasize, if possible, is at least two major points. The first is that we, as Latter Day Saints, are governed by and covenant bound to follow the modern, living oracles in our day first and foremost, according to the principle of continuing, ongoing, ever unfolding modern revelation, both our own for ourselves and for us, as Saints, from the Brethren. Connected to this is that the scriptures, while they are to be "likened unto us" are of varying value depending upon their provenance.

The Old Testament and New Testament are deeply valuable bodies of scripture, but were also written primarily for the people and under the conditions of the times, culture and milieu in which they arose. The Book of Mormon and D&C, on the other hand, are different in that both were written, one in ancient times, and the other in modern, for the Saints and people of the earth in contemporary terms, moving forward to the Second Coming of Christ.

Secondly, as all words, teachings, or counsel that come through the spirit of revelation, or spirit of prophesy, is scripture (D&C 64:, the teachings, doctrinal clarifications, and doctrinal interpretations of the contemporary oracles take precedence over any preceding scriptural interpretation or exegesis, on any given point and to any specific degree. The Church is developing, not static, and its doctrines, thought true, are incomplete.

To initiate the discussion, I'd like us to critique and think about some salient points from the talk by Boyd Packer, given below in 1975 and published in the Ensign of Aug 1975. Are Packer's thoughts, and the thoughts of the other special witnesses of the Lord he quotes, consistent with the concepts and doctrines being taught by some here as the correct, or authentic understanding of gospel welfare/economic principles? The title of the talk, the entire subject of which is temporal welfare principles within a gospel framework, is "Self Reliance." I assume at the outset that Boyd Packer is as aware as any that in the future Zion, there will be "no poor among us." It would appear, however, that for Elder Packer, the means, or form such eradication of poverty will take, as a matter of both principle and application, are not those of some others here proposing an alternate perspective.

The first couple paragraphs of his talk set state fundamental principles:


The Church was two years old when the Lord revealed that, “the idler shall not have place in the church, except he repent and mend his ways.” (D&C 75:29.) President Marion G. Romney in our last conference explained this principle with his characteristic simple directness: “The obligation to sustain one’s self was divinely imposed upon the human race at its beginning. ‘In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground.’ (Gen 3:19)


The welfare handbook instructs, “(We must) earnestly teach and urge members to be self-sustaining to the fullest extent of their power. No Latter-day Saint will … voluntarily shift from himself the burden of his own support. So long as he can, under the inspiration of the Almighty and with his own labors, he will supply himself with the necessities of life.” (1952, p. 2.)


I'll break this all up so single posts don't go long, so let's start here.

1. Idlers have no place in the Church, and if so, then by definition, they have no claim on the Bishop's storehouse. What does this imply with respect to David's longstanding concept of "the poor" as a special class within the gospel with a collective, as well as individual, claim upon the property and labor of others within the community?

2. Self sufficiency and economic independence, the central themes of Providing the Lord's Way, are mentioned here as a divine imposition and core condition of mortality. Not that distribution of wealth for the alleviation of poverty is not an aspect of the entire welfare plan, but it is not, and especially on a society-wide scale, the central organizing principle of it.

Now, notice the following:

We have succeeded fairly well in establishing in the minds of Latter-day Saints that they should take care of their own material needs and then contribute to the welfare of those who cannot provide the necessities of life. If a member is unable to sustain himself, then he is to call upon his own family, and then upon the Church, in that order, and not upon the government at all.

We have counseled bishops and stake presidents to be very careful to avoid abuses in the welfare program. When people are able but are unwilling to take care of themselves, we are responsible to employ the dictum of the Lord, that the idler shall not eat the bread of the laborer. The simple rule has been, to the fullest extent possible, to take care of one’s self.


Do the ideas within the first paragraph harmonize with the position some have taken here that, within the Church, this hierarchy mediating the sources from which help is sought, this hierarchy can be ignored? Why would Boyd K. Packer -- and numerous apostles both before and contemporaneous with him, take this position on the distinction between welfare as received from family and church, and the state?

What doctrines/teachings of the gospel do you think would have led Elder Packer, and so many other General Authorities (including the famous First Presidency statement of 1936 below, which we will come to in due course, made with direct (but unstated) reference to the New Deal) to take such a position?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Buffalo
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:I'll break this all up so single posts don't go long, so let's start here.

1. Idlers have no place in the Church, and if so, then by definition, they have no claim on the Bishop's storehouse. What does this imply with respect to David's longstanding concept of "the poor" as a special class within the gospel with a collective, as well as individual, claim upon the property and labor of others within the community?

2. Self sufficiency and economic independence, the central themes of Providing the Lord's Way, are mentioned here as a divine imposition and core condition of mortality. Not that distribution of wealth for the alleviation of poverty is not an aspect of the entire welfare plan, but it is not, and especially on a society-wide scale, the central organizing principle of it.


You seem to be making the fundamental error of equating poverty with idleness.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_moksha
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _moksha »

In this Packerian/Droopian school of thought, how would the aged and disabled be categorized?

Did Packer mention anything about Thomas Malthus in his quotations from the welfare handbook?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_ajax18
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _ajax18 »

Alright someone needs to say something controversial here to get this going so I think I'm best equipped to do that.

I don't think "retirement," whether that means a pension, personal savings, or social security is in accord with the communist creed, "according to need, according to ability." And I don't really see it in line with the gospel either. Yes you gave 30 years of faithful service, but according to LDS doctrine, your health and ability to do so came from God, not of your own merit alone. If you're capable of working, you should be working. I'd like to think our reward is in heavan, not a few idle years in a 70 year old body worn out by a life of labor.

The entire societal/political question of working vs. welfare is not a question of whether people are willing to work or not. It's a question of how hard people are willing to work for next to nothing. Western society solved this problem previously by settling new frontiers, thus allowing people to make their living independent of the ruling class. As of yet, we still haven't found a way for people to regain the independence we forfeited when we left the farms.

As long as people do not have the option to leave the "community," this interdependence will always detract from the fruits of true self reliance.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Droopy
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Droopy »

Buffalo wrote:
Droopy wrote:I'll break this all up so single posts don't go long, so let's start here.

1. Idlers have no place in the Church, and if so, then by definition, they have no claim on the Bishop's storehouse. What does this imply with respect to David's longstanding concept of "the poor" as a special class within the gospel with a collective, as well as individual, claim upon the property and labor of others within the community?

2. Self sufficiency and economic independence, the central themes of Providing the Lord's Way, are mentioned here as a divine imposition and core condition of mortality. Not that distribution of wealth for the alleviation of poverty is not an aspect of the entire welfare plan, but it is not, and especially on a society-wide scale, the central organizing principle of it.


You seem to be making the fundamental error of equating poverty with idleness.


Where?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Buffalo
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:


Where?


See the portion I quoted. That's why I quoted that portion.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

We have succeeded fairly well in establishing in the minds of Latter-day Saints that they should take care of their own material needs and then contribute to the welfare of those who cannot provide the necessities of life. If a member is unable to sustain himself, then he is to call upon his own family, and then upon the Church, in that order, and not upon the government at all.

We have counseled bishops and stake presidents to be very careful to avoid abuses in the welfare program. When people are able but are unwilling to take care of themselves, we are responsible to employ the dictum of the Lord, that the idler shall not eat the bread of the laborer. The simple rule has been, to the fullest extent possible, to take care of one’s self.



How does one determine idler? Is someone who is poor automatically an idler? How about someone who is disabled?

And how do the words of another prophet compare to the words of Elder Packer? I see no qualification about an idler in the words below.

Mosiah 4:16-25
16And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with cjoy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

22And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

24And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Jason Bourne wrote:
We have succeeded fairly well in establishing in the minds of Latter-day Saints that they should take care of their own material needs and then contribute to the welfare of those who cannot provide the necessities of life. If a member is unable to sustain himself, then he is to call upon his own family, and then upon the Church, in that order, and not upon the government at all.

We have counseled bishops and stake presidents to be very careful to avoid abuses in the welfare program. When people are able but are unwilling to take care of themselves, we are responsible to employ the dictum of the Lord, that the idler shall not eat the bread of the laborer. The simple rule has been, to the fullest extent possible, to take care of one’s self.



How does one determine idler? Is someone who is poor automatically an idler? How about someone who is disabled?

And how do the words of another prophet compare to the words of Elder Packer? I see no qualification about an idler in the words below.

Mosiah 4:16-25
16And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with cjoy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

22And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

24And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.


Check, and mate.
_Buffalo
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Buffalo »

Kevin Graham wrote:
Check, and mate.


Yes, except Droopy doesn't really believe in the Book of Mormon.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

He believes in the Five Thousand Year leap.

Isn't that good enough?
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