Fundamental Mormon Claims

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_Daniel Peterson
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Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

If it's so easy, then let's see you do it, Daniel. Let's see you outline that informal creed.

It must be remembered that the "creed" -- if it must be so called (Mormonism really is non-creedal) -- is genuinely informal. Which means, among other things, that it won't have a precise form, or exact delimitations. Still, after decades as a committed Latter-day Saint, I have little difficulty envisioning roughly what it is and what it isn't, and have no sense that any significant number of my fellow believers have much problem with the concept, either.

Certain claims are essential. For example, that there is a God, that he has a divine Son (known to us as Jesus Christ), and that, with the Holy Ghost, these three form a Godhead or, even, a Trinity. That they are in human form. That salvation is available through, and only through, Jesus Christ, who took mortality upon himself, was crucified, rose physically from the dead, and, in some incomprehensible way, atoned for our sins as well as for the transgression of Adam. That we -- all of us -- will live beyond the grave (as we lived before birth), and that, thanks to Christ, we too will be resurrected. That we will be judged by God, and assigned to some level or other of glorious salvation (or, in the case of some, to a state of no glory whatever). That the destiny of the righteous is to receive all that God has, and to be "gods." That God called Joseph Smith to be a prophet, and, through the angel Moroni, revealed the Book of Mormon. That unique priesthood authority was restored by John the Baptist; by Peter, James, and John; and, subsequently, by other ancient prophets in the Kirtland Temple. That Joseph Smith established the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints under divine mandate, and that the fullness of the saving ordinances is available in, and only in, that church. That the reception of temple ordinances is necessary for the highest mode of salvation. That the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price constitute the "standard works" or canonical scriptures of the Church. That Joseph Smith's successors are apostles and prophets, and that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are prophets, seers, and revelators.

I believe all of these things. More significantly, in this context, I doubt that very many communicant Latter-day Saints of normal intelligence, if any, would fail to recognize these as fundamental and official doctrines of the Church.

Also to the point: Public denial of any or all of these teachings would expose the denier to potential Church disciplinary action.

Now to a list -- I'll make it shorter, because I have a lot of other things to do than to occupy myself with this thread and this subject, particularly over the next few days and even over the next three weeks (after which I'll be gone for about one and a half months), but sufficient to illustrate the proposition -- of things that would almost certainly not involve one in a disciplinary council, regardless of which position on them one took: Coke and chocolate are against the Word of Wisdom. Evolution occurred, perhaps even up to and including the evolution of the hominids. The events of the Book of Mormon took place, principally, within the boundaries of the United States. The biblical book of Job reflects literal biographical history. The scriptural canon is essentially inerrant, with every apparently historical assertion to be taken as literally true and accurate. Talks in general conference are essentially inerrant, and equivalent to canonized scripture. The destiny of the righteous is to be able to create and preside over worlds of their own.

Differences and nuances of opinion exist among faithful, communicant Latter-day Saints about all of these propositions, and even, to some extent, about many of those in the first list, given previously. (You may or may not be able to accurately guess my views on all of them.)

There are, nonetheless, as I've said, unresolved questions about the precise boundaries of what is required to be a Latter-day Saint.

Some would say, essentially, that one has to be a political conservative in order to be a good member of the Church. I am personally a very serious political conservative, trending strongly libertarian (particularly on economic issues), but I believe this to be false -- and the Brethren and other Church leaders seem to be on my side: Harry Reid remains a member very much in good standing, as do many thousands of "leftists" (including Laborites in the UK, Chavistas in Venezuela, and a devoutly Marxist friend of mine in the American northeast).

Some would say that one cannot be a good Latter-day Saint and accept the theory of evolution. But I do. And so do many, many Latter-day Saints, including a substantial contingent of LDS biologists and geologists, not a few of whom have served as bishops, stake presidents, and area authority seventies. Including James E. Talmage and B. H. Roberts.

There is, too, no official Church position on the exact proportion of "nature versus nurture" with regard to the question of homosexuality (or any number of other more or less analogous issues in human behavior).

There are a number of such "border issues," but they are, precisely, "border issues," and do not substantially disturb the communion of the Saints.

I find efforts to depict the doctrinal situation within the Church of Jesus Christ as utterly unstable, wholly in flux, to be overwrought and inaccurate -- and, not infrequently, disingenuous. And, significantly, while I observe such efforts among critics, I don't believe that I've ever encountered similar "concerns" among fully communicant believers.

As to the specific question of how I personally decide what is, and what isn't, a "fundamental claim" of the Church that I should defend, the simple answer is, flatly, that I choose. If I do not regard the issue as important or central, I feel no obligation to spend time on it. (I'm not paid, or directed, to spend any time at all on apologetics; I do it entirely of my own free will and choice.) But I do not think that my choices are, or have been, eccentric. No member of the Church, at any rate, has ever reproached me on those grounds.
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Daniel Peterson wrote:...Public denial of any or all of these teachings would expose the denier to potential Church disciplinary action.
...


No doubt that is so -- and perhaps to be expected.

But, going back to Palmyra in the early 1820s, we might expect
to see much the same response from a Presbyterian cleric who
noticed a parishioner disagreeing with the Westminster Confession,
or from a Baptist elder noticing a member disagreeing with the
Philadelphia Confession of Faith -- or, even from a Methodist bishop
who noticed a class member disagreeing with the Apostles Creed.

I believe we took a wrong turn with the "Articles of Faith;" but
you'll perhaps find grounds to disagree.

Back in about 1860 Joseph Smith III removed the "literal gathering"
section from our own "Epitome of Faith;" but I see that the RLDS
fundamentalists have re-inserted that particular assertion. Maybe
they (we?) still take our patriarchal blessing lineage discernments
as a literal witness to our Israelite heritage.

Other than that -- any thoughts on the spillout in Afghanistan
from the Georgia Koran burning?

UD
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Uncle Dale wrote:Other than that -- any thoughts on the spillout in Afghanistan
from the Georgia Koran burning?

Not really. Other than that it was unhelpful and will probably result in a number of deaths (if it hasn't already; I've been in airports and on airplanes and in classes and in meetings most of the time since it occurred, and hadn't even heard about it), and that its perpetrator is, to put it mildly, a jerk. And that at BYU, by contrast, we study the Qur’an. I'm teaching two classes on it this term -- one in English, one in Arabic.

Back to the subject, though, of "fundamental Mormon claims."
_moksha
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Re: Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _moksha »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I find efforts to depict the doctrinal situation within the Church of Jesus Christ as utterly unstable, wholly in flux, to be overwrought and inaccurate -- and, not infrequently, disingenuous. And, significantly, while I observe such efforts among critics, I don't believe that I've ever encountered similar "concerns" among fully communicant believers.


Two questions:

1. I assume you mean some doctrine is flexible and some is not. Right? Can't have living prophecy without some possible change in doctrine. Plus, I assume that some doctrine can be on the order of Brigham Young's Adam-God thoughts and may not pass future muster.

2. If active members did have those concerns, would that make them less fully communicant believers?

Thank you for the reminder that our creed is informal and that people should not get hung up on the individual variations of the non-essentials. by the way, your personal choice to be a serious conservative is undoubtedly wise for living in Utah County (most conservative place on earth) and working at BYU.
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

moksha wrote:Two questions:

1. I assume you mean some doctrine is flexible and some is not. Right?

I would put it a little differently. I would say that some things are "doctrinal" or "official" (e.g., there is a God), while some things, perhaps widely believed or perhaps held by only a few, are not (e.g., the peoples of the Book of Mormon covered all of North and South America, chocolate violates the Word of Wisdom).

moksha wrote:Can't have living prophecy without some possible change in doctrine.

True. Although, sometimes that living prophecy will be supplemental, clarifying, or expanding, while at other times it may be corrective. In this life, even prophets (like Paul) see through a glass, darkly.

moksha wrote:Plus, I assume that some doctrine can be on the order of Brigham Young's Adam-God thoughts and may not pass future muster.

Perhaps. Although I'm not quite sure what to make of "Adam-God."

moksha wrote:2. If active members did have those concerns, would that make them less fully communicant believers?

Not necessarily.

Incidentally, I read just the other day, on another message board, about my alleged zeal for excommunicating dissidents. If I were leading the Church, it was said, I would excommunicate many, many people. I'm not sure what the basis for this assertion is. (As a bishop, I don't think I excommunicated a single person.)

moksha wrote:Thank you for the reminder that our creed is informal and that people should not get hung up on the individual variations of the non-essentials.

You're welcome.

moksha wrote:by the way, your personal choice to be a serious conservative is undoubtedly wise for living in Utah County (most conservative place on earth) and working at BYU.

Not really. I was a conservative in 1960s California. And the BYU faculty is, relative to the general American membership of the Church, somewhat liberal.

My conservatism is of the National Review variety (heavily influenced by such writers as William Buckley, Thomas Sowell, Russell Kirk, Milton Friedman, Friedrich von Hayek, T. S. Eliot, and Ludwig von Mises [to say nothing of Adam Smith!]), and doesn't cohere particularly well with the John Birch Society/Utah Eagle Forum type of right-wing politics that is most vocal in Utah. I would happily have supported Senator Bennett's re-election (I know him and like him, though I also know and like Mike Lee), and often find Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck unappealing.
_Dad of a Mormon
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Re: Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _Dad of a Mormon »

I don't have a response to the particulars at this moment, but I wanted to say thanks for that summary of fundamental Mormon claims. I personally found it helpful.

I'm not Mormon and since I don't have much experience with the LDS church, I'm not in the best position to affirm or challenge whether those are regarded as the fundamental claims. So I hope others will add their opinion, especially those who consider themselves faithful Mormons. One quick observation is that I thought Mormons objected to trinitarian formulations, so I think that might be an interesting area for further elucidation. I know there have been many here who have rejected the Trinity. Obiwan, for instance.

Thanks again.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

We do reject the Nicene (ontological) Trinity of mainstream Christendom, but we believe in a Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost -- and a very small minority of Mormons (e.g., Brigham Young and Elder James E. Talmage) have been willing to use the term Trinity to describe that Godhead. (I'm fine with it, too -- just for the record.)

Several of us have argued that modern notions of a "social Trinity" among certain Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox theologians are coming closer to the Mormon view, and that the Mormon conception can be described as a form of "social Trinitarianism."

I myself have written on this topic in the journal of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology: Daniel C. Peterson, "Mormonism and the Trinity," Element 3:1-2 (Spring & Fall 2007). Unfortunately, it's not available on line. I plan to return to the topic at some point, as well.
_Dad of a Mormon
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Re: Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _Dad of a Mormon »

OK, but I assume that you would agree that belief in a Trinity, however formulated, is nonessential. Belief in a Godhead including the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is what you (and I assume most other Mormons) would consider the essential aspect. Agree?
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Dad of a Mormon wrote:...
(and I assume most other Mormons)
...


I believe that it can be said some Latter Day Saints experience
God as ineffable -- or at least not easily described in human language.
In tension with this experience is the need to encounter God as
immanent and personal -- as a Father or as a Son.

For those Saints (at least) God the Almighty is transcendent and
God incarnate is the "Son." Somehow the two polarities merge in
Jesus, who is essentially "Father," but in communion with humankind
is known personally as "Son."

That leaves the "Spirit of God," which, according to the Hebrew
Bible, is neither Father nor Son, but is the power and presence
of the former (and, in Christian terms, the abiding presence of
the latter).

At least that is what I was taught -- and what best expresses
my own relationship with Divinity. I'm quite happy to sit in the
benches in the meetinghouse on Sunday morning, next to
communicants whose descriptions of God are rather different.

Uncle Dale
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
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Re: Fundamental Mormon Claims

Post by _bcspace »

Thank you for the reminder that our creed is informal and that people should not get hung up on the individual variations of the non-essentials.


DCP is incorrect in this case. By the same definition FAIR used to use on it's board (and may still somewhere), the LDS Church has a systematic theology. Some people just have a hard time imagining how continuing revelation and inspiration can fit within it, but it does. Others, not knowing or understanding how the Church treats doctrine, have erroneously proclaimed certain things as not doctrine when they are doctrine or vice versa as an apologetic reaction to difficult questions.
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