Religious definition & what best defines the religion.

[_thews]

1 - Which of the following statements is false?
A – "Christianity" and its theology rejects Mormon doctrine and believes Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God.
B – "Mormonism" and its theology accepts the doctrine of Joseph Smith and believes Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
C - "Judaism" rejects the New testament and all Mormon doctrine and Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.
D – None of the above.

2 – If an apple is an apple, and an orange is an orange, even though both are fruit, will an apple ever be called an orange?
Yes/no.

3 – If a Christian sect is defined by belief in Jesus Christ, are all faiths that worship Jesus Christ considered “Christian” faiths?
Yes/No

4 – What best defines someone who places belief in Mormonism and its doctrine, to include Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?
A – A Mormon.
B – A member of the LDS church (or RLDS, FLDS etc.)
C – a Christian.
D – Other

5. What best defines someone who rejects Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God, rejects Mormonism and its doctrine, the JST version of the Bible, and places faith in Jesus Christ and accepts both the Old and New Testament?
A – A Christian.
B – A Catholic, Protestant, Presbyterian, etc.
C – Other (explain)

6. Can one reject the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants section 132:4 regarding polygamy and still consider Joseph Smith a prophet of God and Mormon doctrine as true? “For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.”
A – Yes (explain).
B – No

7 - If you answered C to question 4 to assert the beliefs of someone who places faith in Mormonism and its doctrine to include Joseph Smith as a prophet of God is best defined as a "Christian", what is your definition of a "Mormon"? Using your rationale that a religion is not defined by the doctrine it rejects, would Jews be considered "Christians" too?

For reference from the Mormon prophets:

http://www.mission.org/jesuspeople/mormatak.htm

Joseph Smith - When asked, "Will all be damned but Mormon?" he replied, "Yes, and a great portion of them unless they repent and work righteousness" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 119).

Joseph Smith - "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 327).

2nd LDS President Brigham Young - "when the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth" (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

The "Brother Taylor" Young refers to is John Taylor, who after Brigham's death in 1877, became the third president of the LDS Church. Here are some of his feelings toward Christianity:

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing….Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

1 Nephi 14:10 in the Book of Mormon states:

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."

Bruce McConkie described the "church of the devil" when he wrote, "What is the church of the devil in our day, and what is the seat of her power?…It is all the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel….It is communism, it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini" (Millennial Messiah, pg. 54-55). What is truly amazing is the fact that some Mormons cannot understand why Christians are offended by being listed in such a "hall of shame!"

The Doctrine and Covenants (1:30) leaves no doubt about the Mormon teaching of exclusivity when it says the LDS Church is, "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased…."

For reference from a Christian perspective on false prophets of God (Note that "Christians" consider Joseph Smith a false prophet of God):

http://biblelight.net/false-prophets.htm

True Prophets Are Always In Harmony With Other Prophets Of God And Scripture:

1 Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity [lawlessness].

2 Tim 4:2 [NIV] Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity [lawlessness] shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Pet 2:2 [NIV] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
2 Pet 2:3 [NIV] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

[_Uncle Dale]

1 - Which of the following statements is false?
A – "Christianity" and its theology rejects Mormon doctrine and believes Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God.
B – "Mormonism" and its theology accepts the doctrine of Joseph Smith and believes Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
C - "Judaism" rejects the New testament and all Mormon doctrine and Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.
D – None of the above.

I'd say that #C is closest to fact. Observant Jews do not accept
the Christian Bible as Divine -- as having religious authority --
although some Jews might accept some of its narrative as
historical. I know Jews who accept the fact that Jesus existed
and that he taught certain religious innovations. Likewise, I
suppose that all Jews accept the fact that Joseph Smith existed
and promoted his own religious innovations. We might even be
able to find a few Jews who are willing to call Jesus and Smith
"prophets" (in a very narrow sense of what that term entails
within the context of biblical religion).

As for "Christianity" and "Mormonism" -- I do not see them as
entities capable of accepting or rejecting anything. "Judaism"
itself is barely such an entity -- if we are looking to the Talmud
as a standard representing Jews' response to many centuries of
doctrinal development.

2 – If an apple is an apple, and an orange is an orange, even though both are fruit, will an apple ever be called an orange?
Yes/no.

χρυσομηλιά --- "golden apples of the sun"

3 – If a Christian sect is defined by belief in Jesus Christ, are all faiths that worship Jesus Christ considered “Christian” faiths?
Yes/No

Depends upon who it is that we leave such "consideration" to.
Personally, I'd say that any sect that worships Jesus is heretical
to the biblical faith. If such sects wish to call themselves
"Christian," not much can be done to stop them. Christendom is
split into hundreds (thousands?) of groups, many of which
profess mutually exclusive doctrines.

4 – What best defines someone who places belief in Mormonism and its doctrine, to include Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?
A – A Mormon.
B – A member of the LDS church (or RLDS, FLDS etc.)
C – a Christian.
D – Other

I'd say "other" -- #D -- and further define them as either deluded
cultists or manipulative con-men. That does not mean that the
LDS Church functions precisely as a formal cult. I'm just trying to
find terminology which "best defines" Mormons.

5. What best defines someone who rejects Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God, rejects Mormonism and its doctrine, the JST version of the Bible, and places faith in Jesus Christ and accepts both the Old and New Testament?
A – A Christian.
B – A Catholic, Protestant, Presbyterian, etc.
C – Other (explain)

C- a "non-Mormon" -- There are folks who might be so described,
whom mainstream Christianity will not fellowship: Quakers, for example.

6. Can one reject the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants section 132:4 regarding polygamy and still consider Joseph Smith a prophet of God and Mormon doctrine as true? “For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.”
A – Yes (explain).
B – No

Yes -- Mormonism is theologically flexible enough to reject its
own core doctrines. But a person who thus gets ahead of the
official doctrine promulgation of the current "living prophet" may
end up being excommunicated in 2011 (and viewed as an
enlightened, foreward-thinker in 3011).

7 - If you answered C to question 4 to assert the beliefs of someone who places faith in Mormonism and its doctrine to include Joseph Smith as a prophet of God is best defined as a "Christian", what is your definition of a "Mormon"? Using your rationale that a religion is not defined by the doctrine it rejects, would Jews be considered "Christians" too?

A "Christian" is somebody who calls himself/herself by that term,
and who is fellowshipped by at least one other person professing
the same identification. That includes the Borgia popes, Jim Jones,
the crusaders, David Koresh, etc., etc.

I doubt that Jesus the son of Mary ever called himself a "Christian,"
or instructed his mother, brothers, disciples, etc. to call themselves
by such a name.

We might more properly call the modern followers of Jesus by the same
terms that he himself called his followers during his ministry in Palestine.

UD

[_thews]

1 - Which of the following statements is false?
A – "Christianity" and its theology rejects Mormon doctrine and believes Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God.
B – "Mormonism" and its theology accepts the doctrine of Joseph Smith and believes Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
C - "Judaism" rejects the New testament and all Mormon doctrine and Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.
D – None of the above.

I'd say that #C is closest to fact. Observant Jews do not accept
the Christian Bible as Divine -- as having religious authority --
although some Jews might accept some of its narrative as
historical. I know Jews who accept the fact that Jesus existed
and that he taught certain religious innovations. Likewise, I
suppose that all Jews accept the fact that Joseph Smith existed
and promoted his own religious innovations. We might even be
able to find a few Jews who are willing to call Jesus and Smith
"prophets" (in a very narrow sense of what that term entails
within the context of biblical religion).

As for "Christianity" and "Mormonism" -- I do not see them as
entities capable of accepting or rejecting anything. "Judaism"
itself is barely such an entity -- if we are looking to the Talmud
as a standard representing Jews' response to many centuries of
doctrinal development.

Thanks for the response UD. I'd vote for D. Jews reject the New Testament; if they did not, then they'd be "Christians". Christians reject all of Mormon doctrine; if they did not, then they'd be "Mormons".

2 – If an apple is an apple, and an orange is an orange, even though both are fruit, will an apple ever be called an orange?
Yes/no.

χρυσομηλιά --- "golden apples of the sun"

Alrighty then.

3 – If a Christian sect is defined by belief in Jesus Christ, are all faiths that worship Jesus Christ considered “Christian” faiths?
Yes/No

Depends upon who it is that we leave such "consideration" to.
Personally, I'd say that any sect that worships Jesus is heretical
to the biblical faith. If such sects wish to call themselves
"Christian," not much can be done to stop them. Christendom is
split into hundreds (thousands?) of groups, many of which
profess mutually exclusive doctrines.

Fair enough... my point was the doctrine which falls under the umbrella of the faith. A Catholic and Protestant may have nuances that differentiate them, but the foundation based on the doctrine they subscribe to has one thing in common, which is that all of the Mormon doctrine of Joseph Smith is rejected as that of a false prophet of Gad based on the Bible of what defines a false prophet of God. "Christianity" doesn't embrace "Mormonism" just because some Mormons call themselves "Christian" as if to imply Joseph Smith's version of Mormonism is actually the true Christianity.

4 – What best defines someone who places belief in Mormonism and its doctrine, to include Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?
A – A Mormon.
B – A member of the LDS church (or RLDS, FLDS etc.)
C – a Christian.
D – Other

I'd say "other" -- #D -- and further define them as either deluded
cultists or manipulative con-men. That does not mean that the
LDS Church functions precisely as a formal cult. I'm just trying to
find terminology which "best defines" Mormons.

Good answer.

5. What best defines someone who rejects Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God, rejects Mormonism and its doctrine, the JST version of the Bible, and places faith in Jesus Christ and accepts both the Old and New Testament?
A – A Christian.
B – A Catholic, Protestant, Presbyterian, etc.
C – Other (explain)

C- a "non-Mormon" -- There are folks who might be so described,
whom mainstream Christianity will not fellowship: Quakers, for example.

Then what is a "Christian"?

6. Can one reject the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants section 132:4 regarding polygamy and still consider Joseph Smith a prophet of God and Mormon doctrine as true? “For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.”
A – Yes (explain).
B – No

Yes -- Mormonism is theologically flexible enough to reject its
own core doctrines. But a person who thus gets ahead of the
official doctrine promulgation of the current "living prophet" may
end up being excommunicated in 2011 (and viewed as an
enlightened, forward-thinker in 3011).

I guess anyone can believe anything, but it's not logical in my opinion to reject the words of a so-called prophet of God and accept other doctrine. This is binary in my opinion, and there are 10 kinds of people who understand binary... those who do, and those who don't.

7 - If you answered C to question 4 to assert the beliefs of someone who places faith in Mormonism and its doctrine to include Joseph Smith as a prophet of God is best defined as a "Christian", what is your definition of a "Mormon"? Using your rationale that a religion is not defined by the doctrine it rejects, would Jews be considered "Christians" too?

A "Christian" is somebody who calls himself/herself by that term,
and who is fellowshipped by at least one other person professing
the same identification. That includes the Borgia popes, Jim Jones,
the crusaders, David Koresh, etc., etc.

I doubt that Jesus the son of Mary ever called himself a "Christian,"
or instructed his mother, brothers, disciples, etc. to call themselves
by such a name.

We might more properly call the modern followers of Jesus by the same
terms that he himself called his followers during his ministry in Palestine.

UD

Disagree. A "Mormon" is someone who professes faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and his doctrine. To mask that under the guise one is "Christian" is presenting a false witness, as "Christianity" doesn't accept Mormon doctrine and believes Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God. in my opinion, a Mormon that calls themselves a "Christian" is merely defining the parts of "Mormonism" they accept, and this is fueled by agenda, or ramifications of rejecting Mormonism. In conclusion, no matter how a Mormon attempt to redefine what Christianity encompasses, Christianity does not, in any way shape or form, accept the doctrine of Joseph Smith or Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
Then what is a "Christian"?
...

Probably the best answer would come from God himself.

For Catholics and Greek Orthodox, I suppose God's answer
came in the form of the cross that Constantine saw in the
heavens, prior to his conversion, to become the first
Christian Roman Emperor. Constantine did not see the
crucifixion cross in the sky, but rather the Greek chi/rho
crossed "Px" (☧) which became symbolic of Christianity.

Or -- perhaps others can find a more definite instance in
which our Heavenly Father approved of the term "Christian."

All other explanations for the term "Christian" appear to come
from men -- and man's explanations can be corrupt.

UD

[_Uncle Dale]

...Christianity does not, in any way shape or form, accept the doctrine of Joseph Smith or Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.

Again, we would first of all need to consult the highest authority
to tell us what "Christianity" is.

If we asked the Pope in Rome, he might well tell us that Baptists
and Assembly of God members are not part of "Christianity."

If we asked Pat Robertson, he might well tell us that the
Roman Catholics are not part of "Christianity."

If we asked the Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor who lives down
the street from me, I'm half-convinced he would tell us that
Methodists and Presbyterians are not part of "real" Christianity.

Who is IN the body of Messiah -- and who is NOT in it?

Is King David in the Body of Christ? St. Augustin? John Calvin?

If we can determine who is IN the Body of Christ, for certain,
then I suppose your question will be answered.

I myself maintain that some born-again Reorganized LDS are
IN the Body of Messiah -- but many Christians would disagree.

UD

[_thews]

...
Then what is a "Christian"?
...

Probably the best answer would come from God himself.

For Catholics and Greek Orthodox, I suppose God's answer
came in the form of the cross that Constantine saw in the
heavens, prior to his conversion, to become the first
Christian Roman Emperor. Constantine did not see the
crucifixion cross in the sky, but rather the Greek chi/rho
crossed "Px" (☧) which became symbolic of Christianity.

Or -- perhaps others can find a more definite instance in
which our Heavenly Father approved of the term "Christian."

All other explanations for the term "Christian" appear to come
from men -- and man's explanations can be corrupt.

UD

http://LDS.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)--and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

In the above version of the so-called "first" vision, the one thing we can conclude is that per Joseph Smith's testimony of what God (or personages) supposedly said, was that ALL Christian religions were an abomination in his sight. If so, how can one claim Mormonism is "Christian" if the very foundation for this new religion is to replace all religions that were supposedly an abomination in the eyes of God? It's more a function of what is not, rather than what it supposedly is.

[_thews]

...Christianity does not, in any way shape or form, accept the doctrine of Joseph Smith or Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.

Again, we would first of all need to consult the highest authority
to tell us what "Christianity" is.

If we asked the Pope in Rome, he might well tell us that Baptists
and Assembly of God members are not part of "Christianity."

If we asked Pat Robertson, he might well tell us that the
Roman Catholics are not part of "Christianity."

If we asked the Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor who lives down
the street from me, I'm half-convinced he would tell us that
Methodists and Presbyterians are not part of "real" Christianity.

Who is IN the body of Messiah -- and who is NOT in it?

Is King David in the Body of Christ? St. Augustin? John Calvin?

If we can determine who is IN the Body of Christ, for certain,
then I suppose your question will be answered.

I myself maintain that some born-again Reorganized LDS are
IN the Body of Messiah -- but many Christians would disagree.

UD

I would be one who disagrees. Mormon doctrine is a part of "Mormonism" for those who place faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and in the doctrine of Joseph Smith; to all "Christians" Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God and the doctrine of Joseph Smith is rejected as false. "Christianity" rejects all of Mormon doctrine, to include the revised JST version of the Bible. Make no mistake, calling the JST "footnotes" version of the KJV the KJV is diversion, as only a "Mormon" accepts the Joseph Smith revisions as of God, to include placing himself in Genesis 50:33.

http://LDS.org/scriptures/jst/jst-gen/50?lang=eng

33And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.

[_Uncle Dale]

...supposedly said, was that ALL Christian religions were an abomination in his sight.
...

Actually, Joseph Smith was essentially repeating what then current
religious reformers like Barton Stone, Elias Smith and Alexander
Campbell had been saying for a decade or more --- that man-made
creeds should not stand in the place of Scripture.

Of course the first Mormons expanded this anti-creedalism into an
attack upon all the Christian sects. But the short quote you gave
is merely what many religious people were saying in the 1820s and
1830s. If we condemn Smith for this short quote, I'd say that
the proper condemnation should be of his pretensions to messages
from God, rather than a rejection of creeds.

It's just my own personal view, but I'd rank the creeds thusly:

1. worst -- Augsburg Confession
2. almost as bad -- Westminster Confession
3. pretty bad -- Book of Common Prayer
4. not so good -- Philadelphia Confession
5. not my religion -- Anastasian Creed
6. least bad -- Apostles Creed
7. best -- "red letter" words of Jesus

UD

[_Uncle Dale]

...
I would be one who disagrees.
...

Which is fine with me.

I'm RLDS; but since I do not claim to be a Christian, we should
have no argument over my saying anything that hurts you.

UD

[_thews]

...
I would be one who disagrees.
...

Which is fine with me.

I'm RLDS; but since I do not claim to be a Christian, we should
have no argument over my saying anything that hurts you.

UD

It's not a function of hurt, but rather what makes sense. I didn't know you were RLDS UD... do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and the Book of Mormon, which came from seer stones that he used to translate the Book of Mormon, is of God?