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Doctor CamNC4Me made a post in the recent Schryver Misogyny review which struck a nerve in me.

It left me reflecting on my junior and high school days and my world view of women at the time. This led me right on to a review of my earlier years in marriage and my fanaticism in the church.

In thinking back, it seems to me that part of what I would like to say here was the norms of society at the time (all over the nation, not just SLC or Mormons). I now wonder how true that statement is. Anyway, here are some of those "norms":

My school days:

1. A woman's place was in the home, raising children.

2. A working woman was sinning as "the woman shall be saved in childbirth" and "by the sweat of thy brow" was the man to be saved.

3. A working woman was stealing work and competing in the very thing needful for the man's salvation.

4. A divorced woman was at best tainted and typically held with the same esteem as a whore.

5. It was the norm for the boys to "kiss and tell"

6. I now assume much of that kiss and telling may have been largely exaggerated, if not outright fabricated, and at the expense of many girls that did not make the social grade.

7. Its perfectly fine to beat up fags, and homophobia is simply part of the doctrine.

Married years.

7. The woman's place is to cook, wash cloths, clean and take care of kids, my place was to provide, never the woman's work.

Many would say that my wife has been very much blessed as through 30 years of marriage she has always been a "stay at home mom". Though only having three children, the implications of "barefoot and pregnant" apply. When the children flew the nest, my sweet hearts age, with a total lack of any work experience leaves her no options of personal grown in the career world. I regret not sending her to school or to work, for her own growth.

I am definitely a male chauvinist. Born raised and encouraged by the old school church and its doctrines. It's how my parents and grandparents lived. As times have changed, hopefully my chauvinism has diminished, but unfortunately those things that are the most hard for us to repent of haunt me. Maybe the most painful are when you see the traits you fear most in yourself, in your children. How much pain and damage have I inflicted to my loved ones?

And in today's culture where the things spoken of here are unacceptable and shunned, and which my heart and mind believe should be the case, how shallow have I been able to bury my chauvinism and mistreatment of women?

When it's said that those who get the most vocal over topics like homosexuality are those that have those same tendencies I'm afraid I'm guilty of this exact thing in attacking William over his treatment of woman. I attack him for the very thing I despise most in myself.

God forgive me. More importantly may my wife and children and their children forgive me.

here is a sample of what culture taught me was the ideal american home

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZAR7Q28V9g

It left me reflecting on my junior and high school days and my world view of women at the time. This led me right on to a review of my earlier years in marriage and my fanaticism in the church.

What does this mean, specifically?

Droopy wrote:

It left me reflecting on my junior and high school days and my world view of women at the time. This led me right on to a review of my earlier years in marriage and my fanaticism in the church.

What does this mean, specifically?

One aspect of this means that instead of spending Thursday and Friday nights with my family, for 8 years I was busy working on my calling and election sure as an ordance worker at the Provo and Timpanogos temples.

Not counting my deep ending over end of the world prophecies and thousands of dollars of home storage (basics for 2 years for 20, extended basics for 10 for a year ... want to buy some?)

Or the years of study in infobases, long before the internet made it easy.

Now I’m just guessing, but I assume that GC talks were being given all through the 70’s, and well into the 80’s before the church seemed to quit preaching that woman should not work but should remain in the home and bear children.

Am I really the only TBM and/or ex TBM that was raised in very male dominated and chauvinistic environments or has been effected by those that were?

No other thoughts?

I really hope you get more comments, rockslider. I find it impossible to believe that being taught, as a child, that women should stay at home and raise children didn't result in some chauvinistic attitudes.

There are many things that are a result of the LDS culture that I was brought up in that remain in me. Much of it is very, very good. Some of it is not and that I strive to purge. Some views and ways I approach things have I have been able to modify and even change. Much I have not. I think one of the hardest things I struggle with is issues regarding the role of women, what the wife's place is in the home and so on. I married a convert. She wanted a career at least on a limited basis as well as a family. She was willing to make modifications based on when the children were young. She also understood that her choosen work path was not near as financially beneficial as was mine. But she expected certian sacrifices on my part to so she could meet some of her desires. I wanted to support her in those goals but at the same time was very conflicted about it. Once I was out of college and working we never needed her income.

I often felt the trade offs we made were no where near the little economic benefit that came from her work. Because we needed to live near where she worked I also made a number of career sacrifices. And while I make a decent income they still cost us a lot of money. A few years ago I had a chance at what I believe would have been a position and dream job for me to finish out the next 10-15 years of my career. It would be in the same field I am in but as the president of an organization that provided support and consultative functions to the industry I am in. Because my wife did not want to move (some for family reasons but much for her work and position) I passed on it. She vehemently opposed me on this. I am still pretty upset about it at times.

Now that missed opportunity may not really be tied to patriarchal issues but it does stir up those feelings. I wonder what it would have been like if I married a woman who would have been committed to the traditional stay at home mom role. I feel often and resent that she did not treat me more like the "head of the home." At times I have used the words of LDS leaders in argument over what she was doing with her time out of the home.

So on the one hand there is this desire to be supportive of her other needs and I have happy to do so. On the other hand there is this feeling that I have a wife that is not in line with what the church teaches, is less than respectful of my position as head of the home and so on. Yet she has been supportive of my callings and such. She helped get me going in the career I have. She rarely complains if ever about the time I have to give to my work which is at times substantial.

And then there is my active in the LDS church older daughter who has been married 8 years and has no children. She seems to have little interest in children, has been career oriented, likes to travel and she and her husband. This has bothered me a lot. It does so less now and she and I can talk about such things. She expressed her concern about what she perceives as some misogyny that comes from LDS teachings. But there is still that tug in me that wants to tell her to "get with the program."


Then there are other things as well. Some I have spoken about before. I will leave those for another thread though.

Thank you for being so honest, Jason. I suspect these are not uncommon issues within the LDS culture. Of course, the larger culture has also struggled with these issues, but the LDS church tends to be a little slow.

I don't see gender, or race. I think all should be treated equally. This whole "Schryver is beating up on poor, defenseless women" is disturbing to me. I didn't think women were viewed in this way any more.

DH happened to be at his place of employment one day, when one of his crew was fighting with his wife. The wife was about to graduate from college with a RN degree. Her immediate employment opportunities paid alot more than the crew member's employment. DH asked crew member what he was so upset about (obviously phone call had upset crew member). Crew member told DH that the wife would make more money than he did, and that was simply unacceptable; she needed to get a job that didn't endanger his position as Highest And Therefore Most Respected Earner in their household.

DH told him I made more money than he does. Crew member was appalled. DH told him I have 3 more degrees than he does. Crew member was more appalled. DH told him there was nothing in this world that made him happier than knowing that I am happy in my career.

Crew member was very subdued.

DH is from a very Mormon family, and was raised within that environment. It took a few years (we've been married for 40 years this December), okay... it took 16 years for him to realize that he had choices to make... he could continue on with the path he was on, or he could support me in my desire to return to college and complete my degree path.

He chose to support my desire to return to school, despite the counsel of our then-bishop and the then-prophet. I have a Master's degree and a career, because he chose my happiness. I also have 8 children and 16 grandchildren, a current TR, and 2 callings, because I choose to do what I can to support what makes him happy (and I don't care who gets PO'd about it).