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'I explained that even if evidence for an early Christian community in Mesoamerica could be found, that still wouldn’t satisfy most critics or prove that the Book of Mormon is true. The task of finding the evidence of a real ancient community of New World Christians becomes difficult once we understand the complexity and nature of what might be found.'

'First, it’s important to remember that the Nephites were “Christian” for, at the most, 400 years. Second, the Nephite-Christians were a small group of persecuted believers among a sea of non-Christian believers in the ancient Americas.'

(Mike Ash, 'naïve Assumptions About New World Christians' May 2011)

Mike has another go at explaining away why no evidence of Book of Mormon peoples has been found. Ever.
This time it's because we are looking for evidence of a relatively small Christian community in a much larger group of people, except...
...what is actually being looked for is evidence of the 'small group of persecuted believers' AND the 'sea of non-Christian believers in the ancient Americas'. Who, after all were supposed to be, collectively, the only people on the land that the Lord had saved from other nations for them.

Mike is being deliberately disingenuous.

Let's be clear.
The Book of Mormon is a story of generations of millions of people who were the 'literal' ancestors of the Native American's and who were the first people to inhabit the land.
Now, because there is absolutely no evidence these people existed throughout America some apologists (Ash included) have tried to persuade people that the 'land' meant a relatively small part of Mesoamerica.

No problem. Let's accept that on face value.

A civilization of millions of people in a relatively small area of Mesoamerica should be apparent to any one who cares to make a serious search.
We know who they were
We know where they were
We know how many of them there were
We know what 'stuff' they had
and
We know exactly when they were there

Why is it SO difficult...?

Why is it SO difficult...?

Because scientifically, no evidence for is not evidence against. Why did it take so long to find the city of Troy when we had so much information about it initially? With the global Flood, there is actual evidence against. Not so with the Book of Mormon civilizations.

bcspace wrote:

Why is it SO difficult...?

Because scientifically, no evidence for is not evidence against. Why did it take so long to find the city of Troy when we had so much information about it initially? With the global Flood, there is actual evidence against. Not so with the Book of Mormon civilizations.

That's why I should never be criticized for buying treats for my invisible dragon.

Just to clarify for you...

While many of us grew up with the belief that the Book of Mormon was the story of millions of people covering the Americas, (and numerous islands), the current apologetic assertion is that the Book of Mormon is the story of a few hundred to, at max, 1,000 people. The area this group of folk inhabited is perhaps not more than a few acres, maybe ten or so.

Hope this helps.

:-)

~td~

truth dancer wrote:Just to clarify for you...

While many of us grew up with the belief that the Book of Mormon was the story of millions of people covering the Americas, (and numerous islands), the current apologetic assertion is that the Book of Mormon is the story of a few hundred to, at max, 1,000 people. The area this group of folk inhabited is perhaps not more than a few acres, maybe ten or so.

Hope this helps.

:-)

~td~

From Ether in the Book of Mormon itself:
 2He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly atwo millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.

Does 'millions' not really mean millions?

jon wrote:

truth dancer wrote:Just to clarify for you...

While many of us grew up with the belief that the Book of Mormon was the story of millions of people covering the Americas, (and numerous islands), the current apologetic assertion is that the Book of Mormon is the story of a few hundred to, at max, 1,000 people. The area this group of folk inhabited is perhaps not more than a few acres, maybe ten or so.

Hope this helps.

:-)

~td~

From Ether in the Book of Mormon itself:
 2He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly atwo millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.

Does 'millions' not really mean millions?

While at first this may appear to be detrimental to the truth claims of the Book of Mormon, the thing that critics fail to realize is that the stated population numbers in the Book of Mormon are actually one of the greatest evidences in its favor as an authentic historical record. What critics fail to acknowledge is that exaggeration of population numbers, while rarely seen in modern times, was commonplace in ancient writings. [insert vaguely relevant reference] Exaggerating numbers was used as a means of augmenting the significance of the group throughout its history. In fact, the Book of Mormon would appear far less authentic were it to record actual population numbers. It is this type of presentist thinking to which our critics fall victim time and time again.

Baker wrote:
While at first this may appear to be detrimental to the truth claims of the Book of Mormon, the thing that critics fail to realize is that the stated population numbers in the Book of Mormon are actually one of the greatest evidences in its favor as an authentic historical record. What critics fail to acknowledge is that exaggeration of population numbers, while rarely seen in modern times, was commonplace in ancient writings. [insert vaguely relevant reference] Exaggerating numbers was used as a means of augmenting the significance of the group throughout its history. In fact, the Book of Mormon would appear far less authentic were it to record actual population numbers. It is this type of presentist thinking to which our critics fall victim time and time again.

I don't care what side you happen to be on, that post (brilliant IMHO) surely should cause a smile.

Thanks Baker!

:)

Peace,
Ceeboo

Hey Cee....

Yes, Baker is cool. :-)

But, just so you know, Baker's post is pretty much identical to the apologetic response addressing this topic. No, I am not kidding.

:-)

~td~

Millions, trillions, thousands?? All these numbers are so confusing. Just tell me where I can find the word potato in the Book of Mormon.

MesoAmerica is there - what more proof do you need?