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"A group of theologian­s were arguing over predestina­tion and free will, and split into two camps. One person couldn't decide. At long last, he decided he favored predestina­tion. He went to their camp, and they asked why. He said, "I came of my own free will." They banished him to the free willers. When he arrived, they asked why he decided to join them, and he said, "I didn't decide-I was sent over here." They kicked him out, too."

If God does not control one's destination but merely foretells with perfect accuracy, there is no preclusion of free will.

I myself say that God knows to within a high degree of accuracy one's choices and destinations, enough relative to us to be considered omniscient, but not with absolute perfection. And while His hand can be found in all things, He does not interfere so as to preclude will free.

bcspace wrote:If God does not control one's destination but merely foretells with perfect accuracy, there is no preclusion of free will.

Premise 1: Free will is the ability to make choices that are not dependent on external factors in that those factors did not cause you to make a choice

Premise 2: When making a choice one is choosing the option(s) one more prefers. I want to keep typing this response to you, so I do.

Premise 3: All choices are thus dependent on preferences (from 2)

Premise 4: All preferences are imposed on us by external factor

The preferences that we have come from things like our genes, culture, upbringing, and so on. It would be impossible for us to choose our own preferences because in order to choose one set of preferences over another set of preferences then you would have to already prefer one set. It follows that your preferences can always be traced back to external factors

Conclusion: Free will is impossible. We defined free will as the ability to make choices independent of external factors. All choices are based on our preferences, and our preferences are imposed by external factors. Ergo, free will does not exist.

I myself say that God knows to within a high degree of accuracy one's choices and destinations, enough relative to us to be considered omniscient, but not with absolute perfection. And while His hand can be found in all things, He does not interfere so as to preclude will free.

In Mormondom, Free Will costs 10%...

Premise 1: Free will is the ability to make choices that are not dependent on external factors in that those factors did not cause you to make a choice

Premise 2: When making a choice one is choosing the option(s) one more prefers. I want to keep typing this response to you, so I do.

Premise 3: All choices are thus dependent on preferences (from 2)

Premise 4: All preferences are imposed on us by external factor

The preferences that we have come from things like our genes, culture, upbringing, and so on. It would be impossible for us to choose our own preferences because in order to choose one set of preferences over another set of preferences then you would have to already prefer one set. It follows that your preferences can always be traced back to external factors

Conclusion: Free will is impossible. We defined free will as the ability to make choices independent of external factors. All choices are based on our preferences, and our preferences are imposed by external factors. Ergo, free will does not exist.

Doesn't follow. Free will does not exist unless there are external factors to entice us one way or the other. No choices to make otherwise. Also, if God merely foretells, that in and of itself is not an external factor nor does prediction equate to predestination.

bcspace wrote:
Doesn't follow. Free will does not exist unless there are external factors to entice us one way or the other.

How do you figure?

2 Nephi 2

bcspace wrote:
Doesn't follow. Free will does not exist unless there are external factors to entice us one way or the other. No choices to make otherwise. Also, if God merely foretells, that in and of itself is not an external factor nor does prediction equate to predestination.

My argument does not turn on the existence of god. I don't think free will exists and I don't believe in god. My argument is that when we make a "choice" we do so because our personalities were formed by external forces. You say we need to be "enticed". What does that mean? It means that part of wants to give in to external temptation and make a particular choice. Whether or not we get in depends on how our personality was formed, which is something we have no control over.

Doesn't follow. Free will does not exist unless there are external factors to entice us one way or the other. No choices to make otherwise. Also, if God merely foretells, that in and of itself is not an external factor nor does prediction equate to predestination.

My argument does not turn on the existence of god.

The existence of God is not necessary for my argument to hold true,

I don't think free will exists and I don't believe in god. My argument is that when we make a "choice" we do so because our personalities were formed by external forces. You say we need to be "enticed". What does that mean?

Tempted. Confronted. etc.

It means that part of wants to give in to external temptation and make a particular choice. Whether or not we get in depends on how our personality was formed, which is something we have no control over.

The choices one makes can mold preference. You are not a base instinct type of animal. You can keep your base desires in check. If not, you'd probably have comitted murder by now. This is evidence that you have free will and are in complete control of it.

bcspace wrote:2 Nephi 2

I mean logically, not just appealing to scripture.