DCP - your June 4 Mormon Times article on John Whitmer

[_LDS truthseeker]

Daniel, in your June 4 article of Mormon Times, you were professing your belief in the witnesses and in the Book of Mormon plates. At the very end you say the following in an effort to squelch the critics:

"Moreover where did Joseph Smith and his supposed co-conspirators get all that gold?"

Do you believe that the plates were actually made of gold? I thought most apologists don't believe that due to the fact that the plates would weigh too much and be too maleable to be useful if they had really been made of gold.

I thought most LDS historians had come to the conclusion that the plates only had the appearance of gold (as stated by the witnesses and sometimes by Joseph Smith). But they weren't really made of gold.

So do you DCP believe that the plates were made of gold as alluded to in your article?

[_Daniel Peterson]

I suspect (and this idea isn't mine alone) that the plates were made from an alloy of gold -- a mixture of gold and certain other metals. That would explain their gold appearance, but would also explain their (relatively) light weight and would have avoided the problem of their being too malleable.

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=393

[_Buffalo]

What about an alloy of gold and adamantium? Maybe a little inertron and unobtainium for extra stability.

[_LDS truthseeker]

I suspect (and this idea isn't mine alone) that the plates were made from an alloy of gold -- a mixture of gold and certain other metals. That would explain their gold appearance, but would also explain their (relatively) light weight and would have avoided the problem of their being too malleable.

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=393

OK, thanks for the clarification.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Ignorantium and blitheringidiotium seem to be the most common things, unfortunately.

[_Fence Sitter]

Dan,

I sincerely hope things are going well on the home front.

I think the problem with your question regarding Joseph Smith's access to gold is this. Does anyone who believes that Joseph Smith actually created a set of plates claim he used real gold? Aren't you creating a straw man with your question? I think those that argue Joseph Smith created his own plates, think he did it out of a more readily available metal like tin.

[_Buffalo]

Ignorantium and blitheringidiotium seem to be the most common things, unfortunately.

Hey, I've got no tapir in this race. As long as we're dreaming, let's dream big!

[_Daniel Peterson]

I sincerely hope things are going well on the home front.

Well, thus far, but uncertainly.

Thanks.

I think the problem with your question regarding Joseph Smith's access to gold is this. Does anyone who believes that Joseph Smith actually created a set of plates claim he used real gold? Aren't you creating a straw man with your question? I think those that argue Joseph Smith created his own plates, think he did it out of a more readily available metal like tin.

Dan Vogel thinks that the plates were seen only in vision and that, if that ad hoc hypothesis isn't enough, Joseph may have created them out of tin.

But the witnesses who saw them and hefted them said that they had the appearance of gold.

I was going on the basis of the primary sources, not responding to Vogel's theory, of which -- as he knows -- I don't think much.

[_Dan Vogel]

Dan P.,

Dan Vogel thinks that the plates were seen only in vision and that, if that ad hoc hypothesis isn't enough, Joseph may have created them out of tin.

It’s not ad hoc because the theory is entailed in the evidence we already have. I didn’t make it up to escape counter evidence. It’s based on the statement of John Whitmer in 1839 and Martin Harris’s in 1838 about the Eight Witnesses. Dispute my use of these sources all you want, but it’s not an ad hoc theory. The weight according to witnesses was between 40 and 60 pounds, which is consistent with tin but not gold.

But the witnesses who saw them and hefted them said that they had the appearance of gold.

Harris argued that the plates were either gold or lead and that the Smiths had money for neither. Obviously, Harris had no idea how much gold would weigh at the dimensions of the plates. Tumbaga is an ad hoc theory to account for the lighter weight of the plates.

I was going on the basis of the primary sources, not responding to Vogel's theory, of which -- as he knows -- I don't think much.

It’s better than the gold plates theory in scope and explanatory power.

[_Daniel Peterson]

LOL. You know what I think of your theory.

Best,

-dcp