Fear God and Fear the Church!!

[Imwashingmypirate]

Where did the energy come from? Disorganised but still existing? Not trying to convince you of anything, genuinely curious about other opinions.

The organization of energy in a system can increase if it has a source outside the system. in our case, the source outside of our bodies is food. The outside source for the earth is the sun.There is no energy associated with the self that is independent of the energy that powers the body -- specifically, the brain.

But who's to say there isn't an outside source for the consciousness? We die even with food so it's not as simple as continuously providing that. If our brains contain fields, who's to say that field can't continue entangled with other fields waiting for it to organise.

Air might leak from a balloon but the air itself still exists.
What does the energy that is in our bodies convert to in the very last moment? The people I have known die have been basically drugged with mophine in the end. But someone dying of old age can have energy and then just vanish. The eyes completely change and their body becomes a shell.

There is no [KNOWN EVIDENCE OF] energy associated with the self that is independent of the energy that powers the body -- specifically, the brain

When I had an EEG, they were able to detect electrical activity through my skin and use this to determine what was going on in my brain. This is energy that is inside the body, that was able to be detected outside the body.

[Res Ipsa]

Where's the evidence that consciousness comes from an outside source? Where's the evidence of the entangled fields you suggest? The fact that I can imagine entangled fields producing consciousness does not mean that it's possible for entangled fields to produce consciousness.

An outside source of energy is necessary, but not sufficient, for the body to function. If your car's engine is broken down, putting gas in the tank won't make it go. The body has a complex set of hardware, if you will, that permits the body to take in food as a source of energy, break the food down into a form that the body can use to run the various systems that keep us alive. The body continuously radiates energy in the form of heat, which is a more disorganized form of energy than what our bodies use as fuel. It's a constant flow of energy into, through, and out of the body. When the body's systems can no longer sustain the processes necessary for that flow of energy to happen, we die. But the energy doesn't stop flowing all at once. Different systems shut down at different times. The body gradually cools. That sometimes we see what we think is a moment of death does not mean that all the flow of energy stops in a moment.

Energy isn't a static entity in our bodies -- it is constantly flowing through them. Energy is constantly leaving our bodies in the form of heat (thermal energy) and waste (chemical energy). The energy that is powering my brain right now isn't the same energy that was powering it when I began typing the first sentence of this paragraph. The balloon always leaks. The energy doesn't stop existing, but it leaves the body in a less organized form than it entered in. Or to put it in more correct terminology, the entropy of the energy when it leaves is higher than the entropy when it enters. It doesn't go away when it leaves my body -- it's simply in a different form.

The energy in our bodies at the moment of death leaves, at least at first, the same way it has left throughout our entire lives -- heat and waste. It also flows into other organisms as they use the body as a source of food. The energy never disappears -- it just changes form.

I think we tend to misidentify processes as things. I call it "thingifying." The musical "Godspell" has a prologue in which various philosophers sing snippets about their philosophies separately and then at the same time in a musical representation of the Tower of Babel. Or Babble. I like Buckminster Fuller's part:

Man is a complex of patterns, of processes...
I live on Earth at present, and I don't know what I am.
I know that I am not a category
I am not a thing - a noun
I seem to be a verb, an evolutionary process-
An integral function of the universe.

That's how I think of life. It's not a thing -- it's a process. In a very real sense to me, "life" does not exist -- only living.

ETA: I don't understand the EEG example. Doesn't an EEG measure the flow of energy through the body by attaching electrodes to the body? I think of the surface of the body as being part of the body.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Where's the evidence that consciousness comes from an outside source? Where's the evidence of the entangled fields you suggest? The fact that I can imagine entangled fields producing consciousness does not mean that it's possible for entangled fields to produce consciousness.

An outside source of energy is necessary, but not sufficient, for the body to function. If your car's engine is broken down, putting gas in the tank won't make it go. The body has a complex set of hardware, if you will, that permits the body to take in food as a source of energy, break the food down into a form that the body can use to run the various systems that keep us alive. The body continuously radiates energy in the form of heat, which is a more disorganized form of energy than what our bodies use as fuel. It's a constant flow of energy into, through, and out of the body. When the body's systems can no longer sustain the processes necessary for that flow of energy to happen, we die. But the energy doesn't stop flowing all at once. Different systems shut down at different times. The body gradually cools. That sometimes we see what we think is a moment of death does not mean that all the flow of energy stops in a moment.

Energy isn't a static entity in our bodies -- it is constantly flowing through them. Energy is constantly leaving our bodies in the form of heat (thermal energy) and waste (chemical energy). The energy that is powering my brain right now isn't the same energy that was powering it when I began typing the first sentence of this paragraph. The balloon always leaks. The energy doesn't stop existing, but it leaves the body in a less organized form than it entered in. Or to put it in more correct terminology, the entropy of the energy when it leaves is higher than the entropy when it enters. It doesn't go away when it leaves my body -- it's simply in a different form.

The energy in our bodies at the moment of death leaves, at least at first, the same way it has left throughout our entire lives -- heat and waste. It also flows into other organisms as they use the body as a source of food. The energy never disappears -- it just changes form.

I think we tend to misidentify processes as things. I call it "thingifying." The musical "Godspell" has a prologue in which various philosophers sing snippets about their philosophies separately and then at the same time in a musical representation of the Tower of Babel. Or Babble. I like Buckminster Fuller's part:

Man is a complex of patterns, of processes...
I live on Earth at present, and I don't know what I am.
I know that I am not a category
I am not a thing - a noun
I seem to be a verb, an evolutionary process-
An integral function of the universe.

That's how I think of life. It's not a thing -- it's a process. In a very real sense to me, "life" does not exist -- only living.

ETA: I don't understand the EEG example. Doesn't an EEG measure the flow of energy through the body by attaching electrodes to the body? I think of the surface of the body as being part of the body.

Aww. Thank you for the amazing explanation of your perspective. I think the universe is complex and amazing and I like to think we have a purpose beyond life as we know it. But your explanation makes complete sense. I do think there is more though. I don't think we are able to comprehend all there is in this existence and so we can't assume we know for a fact what happens when we die.

The eeg example might be just how I visualise it. The information they get from an EEG is surprising but I guess my point is that for the brain electricity to reach the skins it must transverse through the layers between the brain (different sections including deep inside) to the skin meaning that that signal is being sent outward. What is to stop it travelling further past our skin?

I have at times wondered if DNA is who we are. It seems that in the biological world the only thing that continues is DNA. Nature does crazy things and with the purpose to pass on that DNA.

[Res Ipsa]

Where's the evidence that consciousness comes from an outside source? Where's the evidence of the entangled fields you suggest? The fact that I can imagine entangled fields producing consciousness does not mean that it's possible for entangled fields to produce consciousness.

An outside source of energy is necessary, but not sufficient, for the body to function. If your car's engine is broken down, putting gas in the tank won't make it go. The body has a complex set of hardware, if you will, that permits the body to take in food as a source of energy, break the food down into a form that the body can use to run the various systems that keep us alive. The body continuously radiates energy in the form of heat, which is a more disorganized form of energy than what our bodies use as fuel. It's a constant flow of energy into, through, and out of the body. When the body's systems can no longer sustain the processes necessary for that flow of energy to happen, we die. But the energy doesn't stop flowing all at once. Different systems shut down at different times. The body gradually cools. That sometimes we see what we think is a moment of death does not mean that all the flow of energy stops in a moment.

Energy isn't a static entity in our bodies -- it is constantly flowing through them. Energy is constantly leaving our bodies in the form of heat (thermal energy) and waste (chemical energy). The energy that is powering my brain right now isn't the same energy that was powering it when I began typing the first sentence of this paragraph. The balloon always leaks. The energy doesn't stop existing, but it leaves the body in a less organized form than it entered in. Or to put it in more correct terminology, the entropy of the energy when it leaves is higher than the entropy when it enters. It doesn't go away when it leaves my body -- it's simply in a different form.

The energy in our bodies at the moment of death leaves, at least at first, the same way it has left throughout our entire lives -- heat and waste. It also flows into other organisms as they use the body as a source of food. The energy never disappears -- it just changes form.

I think we tend to misidentify processes as things. I call it "thingifying." The musical "Godspell" has a prologue in which various philosophers sing snippets about their philosophies separately and then at the same time in a musical representation of the Tower of Babel. Or Babble. I like Buckminster Fuller's part:

Man is a complex of patterns, of processes...
I live on Earth at present, and I don't know what I am.
I know that I am not a category
I am not a thing - a noun
I seem to be a verb, an evolutionary process-
An integral function of the universe.

That's how I think of life. It's not a thing -- it's a process. In a very real sense to me, "life" does not exist -- only living.

ETA: I don't understand the EEG example. Doesn't an EEG measure the flow of energy through the body by attaching electrodes to the body? I think of the surface of the body as being part of the body.

Aww. Thank you for the amazing explanation of your perspective. I think the universe is complex and amazing and I like to think we have a purpose beyond life as we know it. But your explanation makes complete sense. I do think there is more though. I don't think we are able to comprehend all there is in this existence and so we can't assume we know for a fact what happens when we die.

The eeg example might be just how I visualise it. The information they get from an EEG is surprising but I guess my point is that for the brain electricity to reach the skins it must transverse through the layers between the brain (different sections including deep inside) to the skin meaning that that signal is being sent outward. What is to stop it travelling further past our skin?

I have at times wondered if DNA is who we are. It seems that in the biological world the only thing that continues is DNA. Nature does crazy things and with the purpose to pass on that DNA.

Thanks! My perspective is what it is, and I recognize that my "no external purpose" view is distinctly in the minority. I absolutely agree that we don't know everything about human existence. I just try to stick close to the available evidence, and that works just fine for me.

So, based on just a little googling, it is my understanding that all the body tissues between the brain and scalp surface are sufficient conductors to allow the tiny voltage charges to travel to the surface of the skin. But the air does not have the same conductive properties and so the electricity does not travel into the air. At low voltages, like those that occur in the brain, air acts as an insulator, rather than a conductor. However, most (maybe all) insulators have a point where the amount of charge is sufficient to overcome the insulating effect. So, I guess the answer is that the voltage is too small to overcome the insulation properties of air.

Thinking of ourselves as DNA is interesting. I tend to think of DNA as blueprints and our sense of self as an emergent property of the stuff that's built based on the blueprint. But who knows for sure?

[Imwashingmypirate]

Aww. Thank you for the amazing explanation of your perspective. I think the universe is complex and amazing and I like to think we have a purpose beyond life as we know it. But your explanation makes complete sense. I do think there is more though. I don't think we are able to comprehend all there is in this existence and so we can't assume we know for a fact what happens when we die.

The eeg example might be just how I visualise it. The information they get from an EEG is surprising but I guess my point is that for the brain electricity to reach the skins it must transverse through the layers between the brain (different sections including deep inside) to the skin meaning that that signal is being sent outward. What is to stop it travelling further past our skin?

I have at times wondered if DNA is who we are. It seems that in the biological world the only thing that continues is DNA. Nature does crazy things and with the purpose to pass on that DNA.

Thanks! My perspective is what it is, and I recognize that my "no external purpose" view is distinctly in the minority. I absolutely agree that we don't know everything about human existence. I just try to stick close to the available evidence, and that works just fine for me.

So, based on just a little googling, it is my understanding that all the body tissues between the brain and scalp surface are sufficient conductors to allow the tiny voltage charges to travel to the surface of the skin. But the air does not have the same conductive properties and so the electricity does not travel into the air. At low voltages, like those that occur in the brain, air acts as an insulator, rather than a conductor. However, most (maybe all) insulators have a point where the amount of charge is sufficient to overcome the insulating effect. So, I guess the answer is that the voltage is too small to overcome the insulation properties of air.

Thinking of ourselves as DNA is interesting. I tend to think of DNA as blueprints and our sense of self as an emergent property of the stuff that's built based on the blueprint. But who knows for sure?

What about when you are under water

I agree with the DNA blue prints. But I do wonder if there is more to it. DNA is the only part of biological life that seems to continue to live. Looking at viruses, they die quickly but their entire purpose is purely to multiply the DNA. All the symptoms we experience are our own body fighting it.

[bill4long]

Thanks! My perspective is what it is, and I recognize that my "no external purpose" view is distinctly in the minority. I absolutely agree that we don't know everything about human existence. I just try to stick close to the available evidence, and that works just fine for me.

Maybe there is no purpose. Maybe there is. Open question... unless you have evidence that conclusively solves the question.

At the end of the day, all that matters is consciousness. Without that issue, nothing would matter. It would be robots at best without any more consciousness than a rock.

Mathematics is the language of science. It is the language of physics including brain physics. Try and quantify the difference between the subjective conscious experience between red and blue. It can't be done. The "Hard Problem." (And it gets worse.) Some people take that as something to ponder, maybe a clue, especially since that is where all "meaning" actually "resides." Some people don't care. If it doesn't help, forget it.

Cheers