Mormons, Nazis, and Anti-Semitism

[Guest]

From a previous thread…

DCP says:

Depraved Moniker…

Depraved Moniker? I beg to differ! Indeed, how many US main battle tanks have been named DANIEL C. PETERSON?

…yeah, pretty much what I thought. :)

By today’s standards Abraham Lincoln was a racist. And I would be quite surprised if he weren’t also, by today’s standards, an anti-Semite.

Dan,

Out of curiosity, what kept you from cutting-and-pasting the rest of that stale response: the part that says Lincoln was actually less enlightened than his Confederate counterpart because Jeff Davis appointed Judah P. Benjamin to his war cabinet?

But in regards to Lincoln’s racism, I’m sure even you will agree that Lincoln displayed an amazing ability to reject and rise above many of the barbaric beliefs of his day. Should the same not be expected of an Apostle and Councilor to the Prophet of the restored church?

In contrast to Abraham Lincoln, J. Reuben Clark cherished his anti-Semitism to his dying day--this despite the fact that he grew to maturity in an era of greater enlightenment than did Lincoln.

In my opinion, Lincoln’s words and deeds offer greater evidence of Divine inspiration--assuming such a thing exists--than those of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young...or even J. Reuben Clark.

DrW says:

Corpsegrinder,

Checked out your assertion about J. Rubin Clark. Was not aware of this aspect of Clark's character. You learn something every day.

In the current effort to re-mainstream the LDS Church, perhaps it would be a good idea if someone looked into re-naming the Law School at BYU.

Hi, DrW

Agree 100%, BYU’s law school should be renamed!

I think BYU would do well by re-naming it after after Helmuth Hubener.

Helmuth’s short life, in my opinion, is more inspiring than anything said or done by a fatuous gasbag like J. Reuben Clark. Helmet’s courage is certainly more edifying than anything that Dan Peterson--or Adolf Hitler--might have gleaned from the music of Richard Wagner (this in reference to Dan’s vague, rambling testimony on MST; the fact that Dan contrives to testify without actually bearing his testimony says much).

Unfortunately, Helmuth Hubener was excommunicated by the German branch of the Church in response to his anti-Nazi activities. Salt Lake City revoked his excommunication in 1946, but only on technical grounds and not out of principle.

Sadly, the German saints (and more than a few General Authorities) harbored deep admiration for Nazism in the years leading up to the war. Hitler, a vegetarian who neither smoked nor drank, was said to observe the Word of Wisdom. He was also said to have studied the Book of Mormon because it chronicled the destruction of the “pure, white, and delightsome” Nephites by “dark and loathsome” Laminates. The Nephite Gotterdammerung that comprises the final chapters of the Book of Mormon was believed to hold particular significance for Adolf Hitler.

Is any of this true? Did Mormonism play a part in the formation of Hitler’s racial ideology? I want to say no; I want to assume that Adolf Hitler was utterly disinterested in the beliefs of this tiny enclave of German Saints but I can’t. I am prevented by one disquieting fact--of the several uniquely-American religions that existed in Germany prior to the war, only the Mormons escaped wholesale persecution by the Nazis. By contrast, the Jehovah’s Witnesses were rounded up and deported en masse to the concentration camps.

It would seem then that Helmuth Heubener resisted the Nazis not because of his Mormon upbringing, but rather in spite of it.

[_Morley]

from the “Re: Leonard Arrington Testimony” thread

BYU’s law school is named after J. Reuben Clark--a racist, an anti-Semite, and a Nazi sympathizer.

By today's standards, Abraham Lincoln was a racist. And I would be quite surprised if he weren't also, by today's standards, an anti-Semite.

Moreover, it was very common, before the true nature of fascism became fully evident in the Second World War and in the Holocaust, for progressive thinkers in the United States to see much to admire in it. Retrospective finger-pointing is too easy.

....

Okay, so judge each man by the standards of the day in which each lived. Lincoln lived from 1809 to 1865. He fought the American Civil War to end slavery—a pretty good accomplishment for the mid-Nineteenth Century. Clark lived from 1871 to 1961. However, Clark was a racist even by the standards of the early to mid-Twentieth Century.

J. Reuben Clark was also a 'prophet, seer, and revelator.' Shouldn't that give him some added wisdom or discernment? If not, what purpose does the office serve?

Clark said some pretty hateful things about Jews. Defending him by saying, about Lincoln, "I would be quite surprised if he weren't also, by today's standards, an anti-Semite," is ridiculous.

[_Morley]

.... Retrospective finger-pointing is too easy.

....

Some here lived during part of JRC's life. It's not all that retrospective.

[Guest]

DrW says:

Corpsegrinder,

Checked out your assertion about J. Rubin Clark. Was not aware of this aspect of Clark's character. You learn something every day.

In the current effort to re-mainstream the LDS Church, perhaps it would be a good idea if someone looked into re-naming the Law School at BYU.

Hi, DrW

Agree 100%, BYU’s law school should be renamed!

I think BYU would do well by re-naming it after after Helmuth Hubener.

Helmuth’s short life, in my opinion, is more inspiring than anything said or done by a fatuous gasbag like J. Reuben Clark. Moreover, Helmet’s courage is more edifying than anything that Dan Peterson--or Adolf Hitler--might have gleaned from the music of Richard Wagner (this in reference to Dan’s vague, rambling testimony on MST; the fact that Dan contrives to testify without actually bearing his testimony says much). Helmuth Hubener--one of Mormonism’s few bona fide martyrs--was excommunicated in response to his anti-Nazi activities. The Church quietly revoked his excommunication in 1946, but only on technical grounds and not out of principle.

Sadly, German saints (and more than a few General Authorities) harbored deep admiration for Nazism in the years leading up to the war. Hitler, a vegetarian who neither smoked nor drank, was said to observe the Word of Wisdom. He was also said to have pondered the Book of Mormon because it chronicled the destruction of “pure, white, and delightsome” Nephites by “dark and loathsome” sub-humans. The Nephite Gotterdammerung that comprises the final chapters of the Book of Mormon was believed to hold particular significance for Adolf Hitler.

Is any of this true? Did Mormonism play a part in the formation of Hitler’s racial ideology? I want to say no; I want to assume that Adolf Hitler was utterly disinterested in the beliefs of this tiny enclave of German Saints but I can’t. I am prevented by one disquieting fact--of the several uniquely-American religions that existed in Germany prior to the war, only the Mormons escaped wholesale persecution by the Nazis. By contrast, the Jehovah’s Witnesses were rounded up and deported en masse to the concentration camps.

It would seem then that Helmuth Heubener resisted the Nazis not because of his Mormon upbringing, but rather in spite of it.

--- the fact that Dan contrives to testify without actually bearing his testimony says much.

Dr. Peterson's testimony on MST struck me in pretty much the same way it struck you. Wonder how that could possibly be.

Anyway, thanks for the short history tutorial. Again, we learn something every day.

my wife and I lived and worked in Germany for several years in the late 1970's. We were treated to a number of narratives regarding the experiences and roles of LDS members during WWII from a few of the senior German members in our Branch in Bremen.

The fact that the JW's were rounded up and the Mormons were not was something that seemed quite predictable and natural to these folks. Not one of them ever expressed a moment's pause regarding this irony. However, i must say that when it came to Anti-Semitism, the German members of the Branch had learned their lessons well - nary a trace could be detected.

My FIL was a member of the LDS Church during WWII and served in the Wehrmacht. He was a good man who was crushed when a series of faith promoting books he wrote specifically about Mormon beliefs were rejected by Deseret Books.

While these books were not great, their content had at least as much basis in fact and was at least as accurate of a depiction of LDS mythology as many that have been published and become "successful" since.

In spite of what he saw as rejection of his "life's work" by the Church he loved, my German FIL had no problem whatsoever in expressing a full, detailed, and heartfelt testimony as to the "truthfulness" of the LDS Church.

[_Corpsegrinder]

DCP wrote:

Moreover, it was very common, before the true nature of fascism became fully evident in the Second World War and in the Holocaust, for progressive thinkers in the United States to see much to admire in it. Retrospective finger-pointing is too easy.

Dan, this is a lie.

The true nature of Nazism was evident well before Germany declared war on the United States. It was evident even before the invasion of Poland. Here’s a hint: In what year did the Nazis pass the Sterilization Law? Here’s another: In what year did the Nazis pass the Nuremberg Laws? And when did Kristallnacht take place?

DrW wrote:

Anyway, thanks for the short history tutorial. Again, we learn something every day.

Not a problem! I’m just a bookworm is all. The fact that your extended lived in Germany during the war and were LDS is simply fascinating. Do you know of any good books on the experiences of Mormons in Nazi Germny?

[Guest]

DrW wrote:

Anyway, thanks for the short history tutorial. Again, we learn something every day.

Not a problem! I’m just a bookworm is all. The fact that your extended lived in Germany during the war and were LDS is simply fascinating. Do you know of any good books on the experiences of Mormons in Nazi Germny?

I am not aware of any off the top of my head. However, the following experience was often a part of my FIL's testimony as to the truthfulness of the Gospel, the blessing of the Lord's protection, and benefits of the WoW.

The depictions that one sees in movies and reads in books of events on the German side after the Battle of the Bulge, wherein German soldiers laid down their arms and began walking home from the battle field, are no exaggeration.

My FIL was in one such unit (comprised mainly of older men and boys). One morning after being stuck with inadequate food or provisions for some time, and hearing increasingly bad news from the nearby front, their commanding officer called them to formation and gave them some welcome news.

He and his fellow officers collected the weapons of the enlisted men, provided all of them with what little food and provisions he could, asked them to remove their rank insignias from their uniforms, and suggested that they make their way home - the war was lost.

My FIL was given a little bread, a few pickles and at least one bottle of schnapps. Being a good Mormon, he did not drink the schnapps. However, he was inspired not to trade it with some of the others for food. He was eventually able to trade drinks of his schnapps for a series of rides on everything from horse drawn carts to the backs of transport trucks to make his way south and home to Frankfurt a/m.

He was the only male member of his family to do so. My wife's two older half-brothers were both killed in action. One died in a tank on the Russian Front and one died in France.

The middle names of my twin sons were given in honor of these two young men. We have pictures.

[_Corpsegrinder]

Dan,

Here’re some intriguing hints from a fellow scholar regarding what “progressive thinkers” may or may not have known about the persecution of the Jews before the start of WW2…

Fawn Brodie: An Unlikely Observer
Strange twists and turns await the researcher who digs deeply into any subject. At the beginning of this project, I never suspected I'd be reading the private correspondence of controversial Mormon biographer Fawn M. Brodie. In 1945 she published No Man Knows My History, an unflattering portrait of the first Mormon prophet, Joseph Smith, Jr., that resulted in her excommunication from the faith of her birth. During her career she also wrote acclaimed biographies of Thomas Jefferson, Thaddeus Stevens, Richard Nixon, and Sir Richard Burton.

Brodie also had a connection with her church in Nazi Germany. Her father, Thomas E. McKay, served three missions in Germany, the last as the Mormon leader who turned out the lights after missionaries evacuated at the beginning of the Second World War. Two others, a brother and former boyfriend, also served German missions during the prewar Nazi period. Married outside of her faith to a fellow graduate student at the University of Chicago, a political scientist of Latvian Jewish origin, Fawn developed an intense sensitivity to the plight of Germany's Jews during the 1930s. Her personal correspondence provides an interesting critique of the Mormons' response to the rise of Hitler.



http://mormons-in-nazi-germany.blogspot.com/

[_Corpsegrinder]

I am not aware of any off the top of my head. However, the following experience was often a part of my FIL's testimony as to the truthfulness of the Gospel...

Thank you for sharing that! I’ve known far too may war geeks who were interested in little more than the technical aspects of Allied vs Axis weaponry…I used to be one! But as an adult, I find stories like that of your father in law far more compelling than any other aspect of WW2. Before too long I might even end up becoming a card-carrying pacifist. Thanks again!

[_Daniel Peterson]

Books about the Mormon experience under Nazism?

Here are two:

When Truth Was Treason: German Youth Against Hitler, by Karl-Heinz Schnibbe, with Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, and Provo: Academic Research Foundation/Stratford Books, 1995/2003.

Hubener Vs. Hitler: A Biography of Helmuth Hubener, by Richard Lloyd Dewey. Provo: Academic Research Foundation/Stratford Books, 2004.

that stale response

Stale? Perhaps. But true. And that, to simpleminded folk like me, is the more salient fact.

You've started your response off in wonderfully insulting fashion, though. No revving up. No warm up required. Full throttle from the start.

But in regards to Lincoln’s racism, I’m sure even you will agree that Lincoln displayed an amazing ability to reject and rise above many of the barbaric beliefs of his day.

And yet, by today's standards, he would be a racist.

In my opinion, Lincoln’s words and deeds offer greater evidence of Divine inspiration--assuming such a thing exists--than those of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young...or even J. Reuben Clark.

I'm a major fan of Abraham Lincoln, but, alas, I disagree with you.

a fatuous gasbag like J. Reuben Clark

Speaking of fatuous.

IHelmet’s courage is certainly more edifying than anything that Dan Peterson--or Adolf Hitler--might have gleaned from the music of Richard Wagner

I'm not even exactly sure what this sentence means.

Dan’s vague, rambling testimony on MST; the fact that Dan contrives to testify without actually bearing his testimony says much

Dr. Peterson's testimony on MST struck me in pretty much the same way it struck you. Wonder how that could possibly be. . . . Unlike DCP, and in spite of this rejection of his life's work by the Church he loved, my German FIL had no problem whatsoever in expressing a full, detailed, and heartfelt testimony as to the "truthfulness" of the LDS Church.

My my. It's total war.

Everything about this Peterson fellow is terrible, whether on topic or not. Even his personal faith stinks.

Sadly, the German saints (and more than a few General Authorities) harbored deep admiration for Nazism in the years leading up to the war.

And not a few others, as well. (Jonah Goldberg's book Liberal Fascism is certainly an eye-opener.) Herbert von Karajan, Martin Heidegger, Edward VIII, and many others were either members of the Nazi Party or sympathetic to it -- some all the way to 1945. Joseph P. Kennedy, the father of Jack and Bobby and Ted, was a Nazi-sympathizer and an anti-Semite, even into the war.

It's a mistake to imagine that Nazism came across as pure evil, without any redeeming qualities. To make such an error renders it impossible to understand why so many Germans (and Austrians, and Norwegians, and etc.) were attracted to the ideology (initially, at least). Hitler was elected chancellor of Germany, after all.

Lincoln . . . fought the American Civil War to end slavery

Actually, no he didn't. He fought it to save the Union. There is no question that he personally opposed slavery, but saving the Union was his principal goal in fighting the Civil War.

That's why he supported the compromise Corwin amendment in 1861, which, in an attempt to conciliate the South, would have prohibited congressional interference with slavery in slave-holding states.

That's why, at the beginning of the war, he prohibited his generals from freeing slaves even in captured territories. (Consider, for example, the cases of Major General John C. Fremont and General David Hunter. In a letter of protest sent to Lincoln, Charles Sumner commented on how sad it was for Lincoln "to have the power of a god and not use it godlike.")

On August 22, 1862, just a few weeks before signing the Emancipation Proclamation and after he had already discussed a draft of it with his cabinet in July, he wrote a letter responding to an editorial by the New York Tribune's Horace Greeley that had urged complete abolition:

"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. . . . If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it. . . . What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union."

Dan, this is a lie.

In civil conversation, one expresses disagreement with some variant of "This is incorrect." One doesn't typically accuse one's conversation partner of being a liar.

But then, this is total war, apparently, and not civil conversation at all.

The true nature of Nazism was evident well before Germany declared war on the United States. . . . It was evident even before the invasion of Poland.

In many ways, yes, it was.

You'll notice, though, that I said that "the true nature of fascism became fully evident in the Second World War and in the Holocaust." (Emphasis added.) The fact is that, overwhelmingly, people were still astonished when they realized the full magnitude of the "Final Solution" and of Hitler's tyranny. Even members of military units who had been fighting Nazi Germany for some time (e.g., my own father's unit within the 11th Armored Division of Patton's Third Army, which liberated KZ Mauthausen) were shocked, appalled, horrified, and utterly surprised by what they encountered.

Here’s a hint: In what year did the Nazis pass the Sterilization Law? Here’s another: In what year did the Nazis pass the Nuremberg Laws? And when did Kristallnacht take place?

Drop the condescending nonsense. I know this stuff at least as well as you do.

Incidentally, do you or your Kameraden here have any evidence to suggest that J. Reuben Clark endorsed Kristallnacht, or any of that sort of thing?

[_Nevo]

In contrast to Abraham Lincoln, J. Reuben Clark cherished his anti-Semitism to his dying day--this despite the fact that he grew to maturity in an era of greater enlightenment than did Lincoln.

I don't think the last quarter of the nineteenth century was much more enlightened than the first quarter with regard to racism and anti-semitism. I think it may have been worse, actually.

D. Michael Quinn ascribes Clark's anti-Jewish bias to his personal experiences with Jewish people while living in New York, to his two defeats for a Senate nomination at the hands of a Jewish opponent, and to his strong anti-Communist views. His time in the State Department may also have been a factor. As historian H.W. Brands notes in passing in his biography of FDR, "the State Department had a long history of anti-Semitism that reflected the old-stock Protestant values of the nineteenth-century founders of the American foreign service." In any case, Clark's lifelong distrust of "Jewish money" and "Jewish influence" was hardly unusual for the time.

It's easy for us to condemn such views now, but we belong to a different culture. As Quinn observes, Clark was "a product of the nineteenth century." Had Clark been born in 1971 instead of 1871, I think we can be reasonably certain that he would have thought differently about a lot of things.