Urim & Thummim NOT used to translate Book of Mormon...

[_jon]

...as certified by Brant Gardner

Gardner Notes: We all know that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon—except he didn't. The Book of Mormon mentions interpreters, but not the Urim and Thummim. It was the Book of Mormon interpreters which were given to Joseph with the plates. When Moroni took back the interpreters after the loss of the 116 manuscript pages, Joseph completed the translation with one of his seer stones. Until after the translation of the Book of Mormon, the Urim and Thummim belonged to the Bible and the Bible only. The Urim and Thummim became part of the story when it was presented within and to the Great Tradition. Eventually, even Joseph Smith used Urim and Thummim indiscriminately as labels generically representing either the Book of Mormon interpreters or the seer stone used during translation.(From FairWiki)

If you were to walk into Church next Sunday and survey the ward membership about how the Golden Plates were 'translated' how many people would state, incorrectly, that it was by using the Urim & Thummim - by which they would mean the magic spectacles?

Further confirmation from FairWiki that clarity on this subject is lacking:

After the loss of the 116 pages, contemporary accounts are very clear that Joseph continued the translation using his seer stone. In later years, the term "Urim and Thummim" was retroactively applied to both the Nephite interpreters and to Joseph's seer stone. Thus the use of "Urim and Thummim" tends to obscure the fact that two different instruments were employed.

What were you taught in Primary, Seminary etc about how the Book of Mormon was translated?


Mr Gardner also points out that prior to the Book of Mormon Joseph was renowned as a 'glass looker' or as he puts it in another way a 'village seer'.

Again from FW:
Gardner concludes that "[t]he implication is that since Joseph used a peep stone, he must be seen in the same category as those who ran a scam with one. Clearly the 1826 court appearance tells us that some contemporaries considered him in that category....However, the fact that the communities would be willing to follow the confidence scheme simply tells us that there was an existing belief system in which seer stones were considered effective and acceptable." [6] More recent critics, notably Dan Vogel, have argued that Joseph belongs in the category of a pious fraud, a model that others have found incoherent and inadequate to explain Joseph's successes and failures as a village seer (and later prophet) and his tendency to polarize acquaintances into believers or debunkers

Now here may be an interesting question for Mr Gardner.
What were Joseph's 'successes' as a village seer? - noting that these by definition must have nothing to do with Mormonism or the Book of Mormon as they came later.

Successes anyone?

[_Themis]

Successes anyone?

The only ones I have heard of are finding a wallet and a hat pin. Both though don't need any special powers to explain.

[_Jaybear]

Now here may be an interesting question for Mr Gardner.
What were Joseph's 'successes' as a village seer? - noting that these by definition must have nothing to do with Mormonism or the Book of Mormon as they came later.

Successes anyone?

He successfully convinced an old man (and I suppose others) to part with his money to pay Smith for pretending to look for buried treasure.

If you are running a con, is that not the best measure of success. Surely, you are not entertaining the possibility that Smith could actually find buried treasure, by looking at a stone in his hat. Were you?

[_Nevo]

Joseph stated at his 1826 court examination that he had "frequently ascertained . . . where lost property was" using his seer stone. And there is at least one account of him doing so:

"E.W. Vanderhoof remembered that his Dutch grandfather once paid young Smith 75 cents to look into his stone to locate a stolen mare. The grandfather soon 'recovered his beast, which Joe said was somewhere on the lake shore and [was] about to be run over to Canada'" (D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2d ed., 43; cf. Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 4:239-240).

Josiah Stowell testified that Joseph, by looking in his stone, was able to provide detailed descriptions of his house and outbuildings—even describing a tree with a "man's hand" painted on it—without having ever set foot on Stowell's property.

Martin Harris described Joseph using his seer stone to find a tie pin that Harris had accidentally dropped into a pile of straw and wood shavings.

As Dan Vogel notes, "these proofs separate Smith from the group of self-deluded treasure seers, for they were either true demonstrations of his seeric gift or evidence of his talent for deception" (Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 43).

[_Buffalo]

Joseph stated at his 1826 court examination that he had "frequently ascertained . . . where lost property was" using his seer stone. And there is at least one account of him doing so:

"E.W. Vanderhoof remembered that his Dutch grandfather once paid young Smith 75 cents to look into his stone to locate a stolen mare. The grandfather soon 'recovered his beast, which Joe said was somewhere on the lake shore and [was] about to be run over to Canada'" (D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2d ed., 43; cf. Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 4:239-240).

Josiah Stowell testified that Joseph, by looking in his stone, was able to provide detailed descriptions of his house and outbuildings—even describing a tree with a "man's hand" painted on it—without having ever set foot on Stowell's property.

Martin Harris described Joseph using his seer stone to find a tie pin that Harris had accidentally dropped into a pile of straw and wood shavings.

As Dan Vogel notes, "these proofs separate Smith from the group of self-deluded treasure seers, for they were either true demonstrations of his seeric gift or evidence of his talent for deception" (Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 43).

You can always find fortune tellers and the like who get it right occasionally. The problem is none of them can seem to do it at a probability rate that is higher than you'd get by guessing, Joseph Smith included.

[_Themis]

As Dan Vogel notes, "these proofs separate Smith from the group of self-deluded treasure seers, for they were either true demonstrations of his seeric gift or evidence of his talent for deception" (Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 43).

Seems a bit contradictory. These are not proofs at all, and others claim the same kind of stories. If you doubt just seek out your local psychic.

Martin Harris described Joseph using his seer stone to find a tie pin that Harris had accidentally dropped into a pile of straw and wood shavings.

I remember when I first was reading this story from an apologetic site. I thought maybe I should check out a critic site and when I did, I noticed the apologetic site had left out an important part of Martin's story, which was Joseph on the ground looking for the hat pin before being asked by Martin to use his seer stone.

[_Fifth Columnist]

Joseph stated at his 1826 court examination that he had "frequently ascertained . . . where lost property was" using his seer stone. And there is at least one account of him doing so:

"E.W. Vanderhoof remembered that his Dutch grandfather once paid young Smith 75 cents to look into his stone to locate a stolen mare. The grandfather soon 'recovered his beast, which Joe said was somewhere on the lake shore and [was] about to be run over to Canada'" (D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2d ed., 43; cf. Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 4:239-240).

Josiah Stowell testified that Joseph, by looking in his stone, was able to provide detailed descriptions of his house and outbuildings—even describing a tree with a "man's hand" painted on it—without having ever set foot on Stowell's property.

Martin Harris described Joseph using his seer stone to find a tie pin that Harris had accidentally dropped into a pile of straw and wood shavings.

As Dan Vogel notes, "these proofs separate Smith from the group of self-deluded treasure seers, for they were either true demonstrations of his seeric gift or evidence of his talent for deception" (Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 43).

If Joseph Smith could successfully use his seer stone to find things and see things, I wonder why he never found hidden treasure? Joseph Smith's explanation was that the treasure was guarded by spirits who concealed it by dropping it further into the earth just when the diggers were about to reach it. Do you accept this explanation?

[_Jaybear]

As Dan Vogel notes, "these proofs separate Smith from the group of self-deluded treasure seers, for they were either true demonstrations of his seeric gift or evidence of his talent for deception" (Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 43).

Seems a bit contradictory. These are not proofs at all, and others claim the same kind of stories. If you doubt just seek out your local psychic.
[quote]

I have to agree with Vogel. Smith was not a self-deluded treasure seeker. He was either a true seer OR a con man.

[_Themis]

I have to agree with Vogel. Smith was not a self-deluded treasure seeker. He was either a true seer OR a con man.

I am sure we can find both today, and both will have their supporters who claim the same kind of stories. I do tend to think Joseph knew he could not really use the seer stone to find lost items.

[_LDS truthseeker]

Come on now. Don't forget that Joseph found a tail feather (instead of gold or other treasure). But that's something.

From the 1826 trial transcript:

Josiah Stowel sworn: says that prisoner had been at his house something like five months; had been employed by him to work on farm part of time; that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone; that prisoner had looked for him sometimes; once to tell him about money buried in Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt spring; and that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone; that he found the [word illegible] at Bend and Monument Hill as prisoner represented it; that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attleton for a mine, did not exactly find it but got a p- [word unfinished] of ore which resembled gold, he thinks; that prisoner had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner had said it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from the surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone; that he supposed the money moved down.