Divining Rods and DCP

[_LDS truthseeker]

On DCP’s mormonstories interview (part 3), they talk a little about divining rods. DCP apparently brought the topic up to show that there’s something to this and it’s not just foolishness as that would make Oliver and Joseph look bad for believing and even using divining rods. DCP related a experience he had where someone was showing him how they worked to find a water pipe and to DCP’s amazement, it seemed to work. DCP had others repeat the experiment and it worked for them as well.

I would like to engage in a discussion on divining rods. Now before the defenders think I am trying to just bash DCP, let me begin by saying that I witnessed something similar. The contractor that was digging up my dad’s yard to replace the septic tank was using two metal rods and was walking around my yard with them. He told me he was dowsing for water pipes. I laughed but then he had me try it and sure enough the rods would move to a parallel position when they went over a certain tract of land.

Now I am still skeptical. I believe that somehow two metal rods can be moved by man-made pipes though some sort of physical means related to magnetism. However, the dowsing process as traditionally described using a forked stick that points towards water is not real.

I personally believe that divining rods are not able to reliably find water or treasure. I watched a show on TV growing up called Exploring Psychic Powers Live (June 7, 1989) that offered a $100,000 prize to anyone that could determine where water was using a divining rod. The dowser tried but failed. The Amazing Randi, a magician and famed debunker of psychics and hoaxers, has a standing $1 million challenge to anyone that can prove paranormal activity, including use of a divining rod in a controlled environment. His challenge has yet to be claimed by anyone using a divining rod. To quote from Randi's site: "No, dowsing does not work, and the majority of claims made for the JREF million-dollar prize are directed at this remarkable self-delusion."
http://www.randi.org/site/

So my question for debate is does anyone here believe that dowsing for water works? Not hunting for pipes using metal rods but dowsing with a stick(s) for water.

[Guest]

Great post.

Perhaps these were the same ones you were talking about, but I recall seeing experiments / demonstrations wherein several individuals who claimed long experience and success with divining rods were invited to locate buried bottles of water using their favorite "magic wands".

None were able to "find" water (or even distinguish buried water from buried air) at rate better than chance.

As I recall, they were not even able to accurately determine whether or not the buried bottles contained water once shown where said bottles were buried.

At the outset of this experiment / demonstration, all of the diviners were asked if they believed that the experimental set up allowed a reasonable and fair test of their abilities, and if they thought that they would be able to find the water.

All answered in the affirmative.

Yet not a single one was able to do any better than chance.

I took this as a classic illustration of how the human mind can latch on to an unfounded belief and use confirmation bias to reinforce it as time goes on. Every one of these individuals were confident thet they could find the water. They seemed shocked when they were unable to do so.

Many religionists end up in the same position when the things they believe turn out not to be true when tested. Instead of being discomforted by the reality, however, many simply account the failure to "God's will" and blindly carry on.

[_LDS truthseeker]

DrW, yeah I have seen several experiments on dowsing, including the one you mentioned, and no one has been able to demonstarte under any type of controlled conditions that it works. If they can, they can get a cool $1M from The Amazing Randi. But that doesn't stop a lot of people from believing in it - even today.

[_Wisdom Seeker]

It is an unusual phenomenon but I do think that divining rods can and do work. To the gullible one might think that someone using such devices may have some additional spiritual or unnatural powers.

[_cinepro]

The fascinating thing about "dowsing" is that it's one of the easiest claims to actually test.

And every well-designed test I've ever seen has shown dowsing to not be any more effective than chance.

But if anyone could actually do it, it would be a fairly simple process to claim Randi's prize.

[Guest]

It is an unusual phenomenon but I do think that divining rods can and do work. To the gullible one might think that someone using such devices may have some additional spiritual or unnatural powers.

One of the areas I worked in for a number of years involved looking at biological effects of weak electromagnetic fields on rats and humans.

With a science background in physics and neuroendocrinology, and a community working in this area that was international and small (only 300 or so worldwide), I found the work very enjoyable.

At one point early on, we considered a look at dowsing as a possible means to study human perception of small changes in weak electromagnetic fields. It only took a couple of phone calls to experts in the field (if expert is the word for them) before we gave up the idea.

Why? Because a closer look showed that there is no scientific basis whatsoever for dowsing.

We later invited a German scientist who had studied dowsing and dowsing claims to give a lecture at one of our meetings. It was entertaining - I can tell you that.

[_Equality]

Nice little five-minute video debunking dowsing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAasVXtCOI

What is interesting is how the dowsers who go through the experiment (and fail to find water at any rate higher than chance), still maintain their belief in their ability in the face of the scientific evidence.

It does not surprise me at all that a paragon of magical thinking and self-delusion such as Daniel Peterson would reject what science says about dowsing in favor of folk belief and superstition.

[_LDS truthseeker]

Nice little five-minute video debunking dowsing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAasVXtCOI

What is interesting is how the dowsers who go through the experiment (and fail to find water at any rate higher than chance), still maintain their belief in their ability in the face of the scientific evidence.

It does not surprise me at all that a paragon of magical thinking and self-delusion such as Daniel Peterson would reject what science says about dowsing in favor of folk belief and superstition.

Thanks for the video Equality.

It's amazing how many people believe something when it's tested and shown to be not really true and the creative excuses they come up for the failures. hmmmm, sounds famlar.

[Guest]

I wonder if the Amazing Randi would be prepared to put up $1 million reward for anyone that can show a single unique prophecy or revelation from any Mormon leader (of any era) that could only have been gained from communication with God...a kind of 'spiritual dowsing' if you will.

[_Willy Law]

Nice little five-minute video debunking dowsing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAasVXtCOI

What is interesting is how the dowsers who go through the experiment (and fail to find water at any rate higher than chance), still maintain their belief in their ability in the face of the scientific evidence.

"This state of denial is extraordinary. Even when confronted with fact, these dowsers prefer not to face up to truth, but retain their delusion."

How then can you separate a persons belief in proven frauds such as dowsing, from their intellectual credibility as a whole?