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The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:45 am
by _Lost Mystic
First off, in order to do the challenge, you have to place trust and confidence in the Book of Mormon. Second, and because of this, Mormons will claim you didn't do it correctly if you received a different answer.
This sets up the person who already starts believing for whatever reason...which is a placebo effect. Hypnotism and other mind control methods use the approach. Trust is needed immediately, so those who pray for an answer with a "sincere heart" and "contrite spirit" are already expecting the outcome in the affirmative. Due to the "double-bind" effect, if you get a different answer, you didn't do it correctly...
If you have to trust in the question first, there is no validity to the answer.
What member truly believes that if someone is answered in he negative, then the answer is true?
Re: The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:08 am
by _jon
When you think about it, Moroni's challenge is irrelevant.
The LDS position is this:
The Book of Mormon is true regardless of the answer you get when taking Moroni's challenge.
I had a senior Church leader once point out to me that the Book of Mormon was defitinitely true, after all many millions of people have accepted this fact and been baptised.
I responded by asking what the success rate was of people who have been exposed to the Book of Mormon versus the number that went on to be baptised? And of the number of people that go on to be baptised how many believe it's truthfulness enough to stay active?
He opened his mouth to respond, frowned, and went very quiet.
Moroni's challenge is not a challange, it's a catch 22.
Re: The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:40 pm
by _subgenius
Lost Mystic wrote:First off, in order to do the challenge, you have to place trust and confidence in the Book of Mormon.
not true, incorrect assumption.
Second, and because of this, Mormons will claim you didn't do it correctly if you received a different answer.
not true. i never have. if you do it "correctly" you will always receive a correct answer, that correctness is not for another to determine, as per a correct application of Moroni's challenge.
This sets up the person who already starts believing for whatever reason...which is a placebo effect.
nonsense. the only belief that is "set up" is that an answer will be received, there is no guarantee what that answer will be nor that it will even be received in a manner "believed".
Hypnotism and other mind control methods use the approach.
apparently reading your posts may require it as well.
Trust is needed immediately, so those who pray for an answer with a "sincere heart" and "contrite spirit" are already expecting the outcome in the affirmative.
contradictory statement. one may "desire" an outcome, but certainly not expect it. And if your heart is sincere and spirit contrite, then you are not "expecting" at all. your reasoning is flawed.
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Due to the "double-bind" effect, if you get a different answer, you didn't do it correctly...
sez you. i think you will find that many people "get" an answer which is "different".
If you have to trust in the question first, there is no validity to the answer.
a more absurd proposition this post doth not have.
What member truly believes that if someone is answered in he negative, then the answer is true?
this member.
Re: The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:44 pm
by _subgenius
jon wrote:When you think about it, Moroni's challenge is irrelevant.
The LDS position is this:
The Book of Mormon is true regardless of the answer you get when taking Moroni's challenge.
I had a senior Church leader once point out to me that the Book of Mormon was defitinitely true, after all many millions of people have accepted this fact and been baptised.
I responded by asking what the success rate was of people who have been exposed to the Book of Mormon versus the number that went on to be baptised? And of the number of people that go on to be baptised how many believe it's truthfulness enough to stay active?
He opened his mouth to respond, frowned, and went very quiet.
Moroni's challenge is not a challange, it's a catch 22.
Re: The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:16 pm
by _jon
subgenius wrote:Lost Mystic wrote:What member truly believes that if someone is answered in he negative, then the answer is true?
this member.
Are you saying that you believe God will tell people that the Book of Mormon isn't true?
Re: The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:56 pm
by _Buffalo
Moroni's promise operates on the same principles as a Ouija board. Only substitute the physical board and pointer for the first feeling that jumps into your head.
Re: The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:06 pm
by _Corpsegrinder
Moroni's promise operates on the same principles as a Ouija board. Only substitute the physical board and pointer for the first feeling that jumps into your head.
Yes. I think many of the contributors to Mormon Scholars Testify would--secretly--agree with you. That's why so few of them specifically mention Moroni's challenge in their testimonies. John Gee certainly doesn't. Dan doesn't, either.
Re: The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:07 pm
by _stemelbow
Lost Mystic wrote:First off, in order to do the challenge, you have to place trust and confidence in the Book of Mormon. Second, and because of this, Mormons will claim you didn't do it correctly if you received a different answer.
This sets up the person who already starts believing for whatever reason...which is a placebo effect. Hypnotism and other mind control methods use the approach. Trust is needed immediately, so those who pray for an answer with a "sincere heart" and "contrite spirit" are already expecting the outcome in the affirmative. Due to the "double-bind" effect, if you get a different answer, you didn't do it correctly...
If you have to trust in the question first, there is no validity to the answer.
What member truly believes that if someone is answered in he negative, then the answer is true?
So if there ever was a person who approached it not already believing and not already trusting the question first, and yet receives an answer that it is true, where are you left? Nowhere. Its probably best to assume those who receive and answer, or claim to, are just mixed up, then to try and paint it the way you have.
Re: The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:13 pm
by _jon
stemelbow wrote:Lost Mystic wrote:First off, in order to do the challenge, you have to place trust and confidence in the Book of Mormon. Second, and because of this, Mormons will claim you didn't do it correctly if you received a different answer.
This sets up the person who already starts believing for whatever reason...which is a placebo effect. Hypnotism and other mind control methods use the approach. Trust is needed immediately, so those who pray for an answer with a "sincere heart" and "contrite spirit" are already expecting the outcome in the affirmative. Due to the "double-bind" effect, if you get a different answer, you didn't do it correctly...
If you have to trust in the question first, there is no validity to the answer.
What member truly believes that if someone is answered in he negative, then the answer is true?
So if there ever was a person who approached it not already believing and not already trusting the question first, and yet receives an answer that it is true, where are you left? Nowhere. Its probably best to assume those who receive and answer, or claim to, are just mixed up, then to try and paint it the way you have.
Stem, is there another
officially prescribed method of finding out wether or not the Book of Mormon is true?
Re: The problem with Moroni's challenge
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:17 pm
by _Buffalo
stemelbow wrote:
So if there ever was a person who approached it not already believing and not already trusting the question first, and yet receives an answer that it is true, where are you left? Nowhere. Its probably best to assume those who receive and answer, or claim to, are just mixed up, then to try and paint it the way you have.
I've never heard of that happening. But even if it did, the whole thing is problematic. Human beings are full of feelings all the time. Feelings can only reliably tell you about your own psyche. Feelings aren't a sensory organ to detect things outside yourself.