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...of how the Book of Mormon was translated.

To assist him with the translation, God provided for him an ancient translation instrument called the Urim and Thummim.

Ehm...I don't think so.
From what Elder Nelson told us, God provided Joseph with a stone which he then had to put into a hat so he could read words off of it.

So, is the October ensign fraudulent or just disingenuous?

jon wrote:...of how the Book of Mormon was translated.

To assist him with the translation, God provided for him an ancient translation instrument called the Urim and Thummim.

Ehm...I don't think so.
From what Elder Nelson told us, God provided Joseph with a stone which he then had to put into a hat so he could read words off of it.

So, is the October ensign fraudulent or just disingenuous?

neither

In 1993 (Ensign), Elder Russell M. Nelson stated that "the details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known."
http://LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... lang=eng#3
"by the gift and power of God." - are the only words that Joseph Smith used to describe the translation process.
All other accounts are from various witnesses with various motivations. The terms "Urim and Thummin" have widely been known to refer to both the nephite interpreters and the seer stone(s).

subgenius wrote:

jon wrote:...of how the Book of Mormon was translated.

To assist him with the translation, God provided for him an ancient translation instrument called the Urim and Thummim.

Ehm...I don't think so.
From what Elder Nelson told us, God provided Joseph with a stone which he then had to put into a hat so he could read words off of it.

So, is the October ensign fraudulent or just disingenuous?

neither

In 1993 (Ensign), Elder Russell M. Nelson stated that "the details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known."
http://LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... lang=eng#3
"by the gift and power of God." - are the only words that Joseph Smith used to describe the translation process.
All other accounts are from various witnesses with various motivations. The terms "Urim and Thummin" have widely been known to refer to both the Nephite interpreters and the seer stone(s).

Let's quote Russell M. Nelson's talk a bit more shall we...

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

Why is the Church so intent on hiding this method of translation?
Why is it not articulated within the special edition of the Ensign?

jon wrote:.....
Let's quote Russell M. Nelson's talk a bit more shall we...

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

Why is the Church so intent on hiding this method of translation?
Why is it not articulated within the special edition of the Ensign?

Elder Nelson only "told us" what Whitmer said, and that Nelson talk gives quite a few other references, none of which mention the stone(s).
And by the printing it in the 1993 Ensign, i would say your notion of the Church "hiding" that method is wrong. A search proves you way wrong
http://LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=Seer+Stones
166 magazine sources, 16 scriptures, 57 General conference references, 33 manual references, and 18 "other"......are you proposing that it is being "hidden in plain sight"?
otherwise it would seem that Church is trying to maintain a more accurate detail on the subject in the special edition, and to that end my previous post above supports that.

subgenius wrote:

jon wrote:.....
Let's quote Russell M. Nelson's talk a bit more shall we...

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

Why is the Church so intent on hiding this method of translation?
Why is it not articulated within the special edition of the Ensign?

Elder Nelson only "told us" what Whitmer said, and that Nelson talk gives quite a few other references, none of which mention the stone(s).
And by the printing it in the 1993 Ensign, i would say your notion of the Church "hiding" that method is wrong. A search proves you way wrong
http://LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=Seer+Stones
166 magazine sources, 16 scriptures, 57 General conference references, 33 manual references, and 18 "other"......are you proposing that it is being "hidden in plain sight"?
otherwise it would seem that Church is trying to maintain a more accurate detail on the subject in the special edition, and to that end my previous post above supports that.

Subgenius, try your own link, and research how many of the 'hits' are about seer stones rather than articles that mention the word seer or the word stone separately and in relation to something other than a rock in a hat....

jon wrote:...
Subgenius, try your own link, and research how many of the 'hits' are about seer stones rather than articles that mention the word seer or the word stone separately and in relation to something other than a rock in a hat....

done
http://LDS.org/search?query=Seer+Stones ... bal-search
19 magazine sources, 3 scriptures, 2 manual references, and 3 "other".
these are just the mentions on the official website; not to mention the countless other closely-related-to-official references

.....are you still proposing that it is being "hidden in plain sight"?

subgenius wrote:

jon wrote:...
Subgenius, try your own link, and research how many of the 'hits' are about seer stones rather than articles that mention the word seer or the word stone separately and in relation to something other than a rock in a hat....

done
http://LDS.org/search?query=Seer+Stones ... bal-search
19 magazine sources, 3 scriptures, 2 manual references, and 3 "other".
these are just the mentions on the official website; not to mention the countless other closely-related-to-official references

.....are you still proposing that it is being "hidden in plain sight"?

Interesting how just a little research into a link you provided shows how little you investigate things. Look at the difference in numbers you are now stating compared to your original post on the matter.

Now, go back to the OP and then show me where, in the October Ensign special on the Book of Mormon that an honest explanation of how the translation took place appears.

jon wrote:
Interesting how just a little research into a link you provided shows how little you investigate things. Look at the difference in numbers you are now stating compared to your original post on the matter.

Now, go back to the OP and then show me where, in the October Ensign special on the Book of Mormon that an honest explanation of how the translation took place appears.

yet, no matter the difference in "numbers" it is clear that the Church is not "hiding" anything, as you would propose. The entire issue provides an honest explanation. Urim and Thummin (UT) is consistent with "seer stone" and/or any other spin you would like to put on it. This October Ensign is accurate with what is known to be credible evidence in my opinion. If you are upset that Whitmer's account was not put in the magazine then so be it, but i am not sure what relevance it has. Especially when you consider that the Whitmer family claimed that they drew away form the church because Joseph Smith stopped using the UT or stones as the instruments of revelation.
The historical evidence is clear that UT, interpreters, and seer stones were used interchangeably by most, Mormon or not.
The missing story that you seem to want to dwell is from Whitmer and is unsubstantiated....so, pardon the irresistible pun, but why would the Church hang its hat on that, when other accounts are more consistent, including the one from Joseph Smith?

Sub, it interests me simply because it's missing.
It's the piece the Church has chosen not to include.
Why?
I'm happy for all known, recorded, corroborated methods to be talked about so I'm not exclusive focused on one.

subgenius wrote:The historical evidence is clear that UT, interpreters, and seer stones were used interchangeably by most, Mormon or not.

UT, interpreters, and seer stones were used for what?

For dowsing? For money digging? For translating nonexisting languages?

What about aura or chakra photo?
What about telepathy, clairvoyance, or ouija board?

Horoscopes? Spoon bending?

Do You believe everything the poets or preachers, chiefs or wizards spout onto Your face?