Hey I hope you can check out this video I created. It's an issue barely any one is talking about, but . . . they will
http://youtu.be/9kd0N_4xM-o
Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
-
_Tim
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:57 am
-
_bcspace
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 18534
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm
Re: Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
So....what's the problem? There is no evidence that Mitt was or is racist (nor the Church for that matter). I even daresay BY wasn't a racist for his time and to consider him so is presentism.
The video is incorrect about there having being no doctrine or scripture on the subject. Black skin wasn't the issue. The issue was descent and black skin, for better or worse, was used to determine descent. The scripture is Abraham 1 which is what the Church tried to adhere to. So the problem for Romney could be the incorrect presentation of this issue and not the issue itself. If I were Romney, I might begin by pointing out Utah's essentially having driven out the KKK back in the day.
Less than 10% of blacks traditionally vote Republican anyway though I believe even Romney (or whoever) could change that if he and the GOP targeted them directly and consistently in the campaign instead of writing them off.
The video is incorrect about there having being no doctrine or scripture on the subject. Black skin wasn't the issue. The issue was descent and black skin, for better or worse, was used to determine descent. The scripture is Abraham 1 which is what the Church tried to adhere to. So the problem for Romney could be the incorrect presentation of this issue and not the issue itself. If I were Romney, I might begin by pointing out Utah's essentially having driven out the KKK back in the day.
Less than 10% of blacks traditionally vote Republican anyway though I believe even Romney (or whoever) could change that if he and the GOP targeted them directly and consistently in the campaign instead of writing them off.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
-
_ldsfaqs
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 7953
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:41 pm
Re: Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
1. The ban only applied to those of "African" lineage, not blacks.
2. All other races including blacks of the Islands, India, non African blacks of Central/South America etc. "were" given the Priesthood once their lineage was determined.
3. Skin color was only one of the ways to help determine lineage, but not the final way. Lineage was primarily determined through Patriarcal Blessing and through Geneology.
4. White men were denied the priesthood and even had it taken away if they had African Lineage.
5. Lineage was determined by Patriarchal Blessing, and Family History Work, not because you were "black".
6. The priesthood Biblically was always highly "restricted" also by Lineage, to certain Tribes, etc., and that didn't make the Church then "racist", it was simply the policy per Gods wishes. The Tribe of Levi for example were the only ones allowed to have the priesthood, all others were "banned". Other Tribes were even denied entry into the Temple, especially the Holy of Holy's.
7. Christ Himself denied the Gospel to be given to any non-Jew. It took Peter after Christ's death to receive a Revelation to give the gospel to the Gentile. Yet, Christ was not a racist.
One thing that's interesting with this, is that Christ did give the gospel to a "couple" of non-Jews. Likewise, in the LDS Church a "couple" of African blacks were also given the Priesthood.
8. Women are not given the Priesthood, but that doesn't mean the Church is sexist, hating women, holding women down, belittling women, etc.. The actual reality is that men and women simply have different roles per the Gospel of Christ. Women still have authority in the Church, are leaders, are treated equally and with respect, etc. There is no "gender inequality".
9. Interesting to note that by the mid 70's Racism and even slavery of the black African had finally ended the world over (talking most, not the isolated cases that still occur). Thus, it is not unreasonable to believe that God operates according to man's timeline, as he's done Biblically on other issues such as the Higher Law vs the 10 Commandments etc., so the priesthood in order to not be defiled by the evils of racism, bigotry, and the slavery of man, was denied to those who were under those conditions. Thus, it had nothing to do with racism "by" the Church, but racism in the world at large. God does nothing unless man is ready for it.
10. The possible initial beginnings of the ban were believed to be according to an interpretation of the scriptures. However, there is no sure sign of this, thus it's possible that it was simply the way things were interpreted after the fact in trying to find scriptural reasons for the ban. Given the lack of evidence, the ban may have been put in place by revelation that was never canonized, and then the assumptions followed after.
11. The LDS Church always had messages of tolerance, and love for others, including blacks, and it always taught "against" racism. Being first exposed to the LDS Church before the ban was lifted, I can testify that those in the Church and the Church itself was so "non-racist" in it's behaviors and teachings, that I didn't even know the ban existed until it was lifted. It was also along with the Catholic Church, had no sign of racism in it. Many of the other religions I had attended over the years, there was often some sort of racist thing uttered and feeling therein, even in a black congregation of another religion I had attended for a period.
12. Mormons always kicked out the KKK whenever they tried to settle in Utah. That doesn't give any indication that Mormons were racist. In fact it gives the opposite indication.
13. Blacks and all races have "always" been allowed to be members of the Church, there was no segregation either compared to most other faiths, all races in Mormonism have always fellowshipped and worshiped with each other. No one was placed in situations to feel "inferior" with their brethren.
14. Mormons, including the leadership of the Church always "lamented" the existence of the ban, but had Faith that one day the ban would be lifted. Such a common belief and view in the Church, even by it's leadership, again does not indicate a religion or a people who are "racist".
15. The ban was both a doctrine and a policy. The doctrine is that the priesthood is given of God according to His Will, and some of the possible commandments of such can be found in scripture, but given Latter-day Revelation, the Church is unsure whether those scriptures actually apply to the subject. The policy in this instance is that those of African Lineage were not to be given the Priesthood.
16. Mormons were "Abolitionists". In fact, several of the instances of Mormons being driven from place to place in it's early history was a great deal due to their Abolitionist views. Mormons were a large voting block, and there was a great deal of resentment by locals who were racist, as well as bigoted toward the Church itself because of this. Thus, it was not simply religious intolerance toward the Church that resulted in some of the early bigotry against the Church, it was also due to it's stance against racism.
Doctrine does not change, but Policy's do. Meaning that sometimes the "practices" that relate to certain doctrines are what changes, not the doctrines themselves. For example, the Law of Sacrifice. The doctrine is still the same, but the practice is now different, we no longer kill animals.
In conclusion, studies have shown that Mormons were no more "racist" than any other population of America, some were racist, some where ethno-centrist, but most were neither, and Mormons certainly were not anything close to those who were racist in the South for comparison. Mormons also were not racist to the degree many other religions were, in their segregation policy's, in their judgments of the black man, etc.
The Church itself also given the actual facts of the priesthood ban, was not "racist", but simply did what God said to do, and the Church could not do otherwise until He said otherwise. Had it been up to Mormons, the ban would have been lifted long before. But, God's Will is not man's Will in the LDS Church. We are led by God, not man.
It is true that some statements by LDS leaders were racist by our standards, some were ethno-centrist by our standards, and other statements are misconstrued and misused by critics, thus not actually racism, but something else is being stated. It is also true that some leaders made false assumptions in trying to "explain" the ban. However, none of these things were "doctrine" of the Church, and for that matter, were not believed by most of the Church, because after all, we have the scriptures and spirit ourselves. As a part of the checks and balances in the Church, the Church still remained intact and not led astray.
Further, if one looks at the totality of the statements and views of nearly ALL of those same individuals who made remarks that might give us pause today, we see men who were righteous men, me who were tolerant and respectful of minorities and otherwise.
It's a similar thing of there existing a few negative statements about other religions by some leaders in LDS history, well those same men a 100 times more often said good things about other religions and christians. One cannot judge a people nor especially a religion by quote mining the most negative statements, and then ignoring the rest which would give a more accurate perspective of their belief system, and then think one is being truthful. Ultimately, Mormons and especially the Church was not racist. Did some humans make some mistakes, yes. But, the Work is God's Work, and his work is above such human petty mistakes and foolishness. THAT is the important thing. It is a Glorious Work to be a part of.....
In conclusion, does the Church need and have any reason to apologize? Absolutely not....
It did nothing wrong. It cannot be blamed for the "ignorance" of anti-Mormons and the less informed Mormon or non-mormon that is ignorant of the actual practice and policy's of the ban, and scriptural history, who usually just ignorantly take the anti-mormon viewpoint of the issue at face value. AFter all, it seems racist at first look, so the Church must have been wrong. Hence the so-called claim and need people have to want the Church to apologize.
2. All other races including blacks of the Islands, India, non African blacks of Central/South America etc. "were" given the Priesthood once their lineage was determined.
3. Skin color was only one of the ways to help determine lineage, but not the final way. Lineage was primarily determined through Patriarcal Blessing and through Geneology.
4. White men were denied the priesthood and even had it taken away if they had African Lineage.
5. Lineage was determined by Patriarchal Blessing, and Family History Work, not because you were "black".
6. The priesthood Biblically was always highly "restricted" also by Lineage, to certain Tribes, etc., and that didn't make the Church then "racist", it was simply the policy per Gods wishes. The Tribe of Levi for example were the only ones allowed to have the priesthood, all others were "banned". Other Tribes were even denied entry into the Temple, especially the Holy of Holy's.
7. Christ Himself denied the Gospel to be given to any non-Jew. It took Peter after Christ's death to receive a Revelation to give the gospel to the Gentile. Yet, Christ was not a racist.
One thing that's interesting with this, is that Christ did give the gospel to a "couple" of non-Jews. Likewise, in the LDS Church a "couple" of African blacks were also given the Priesthood.
8. Women are not given the Priesthood, but that doesn't mean the Church is sexist, hating women, holding women down, belittling women, etc.. The actual reality is that men and women simply have different roles per the Gospel of Christ. Women still have authority in the Church, are leaders, are treated equally and with respect, etc. There is no "gender inequality".
9. Interesting to note that by the mid 70's Racism and even slavery of the black African had finally ended the world over (talking most, not the isolated cases that still occur). Thus, it is not unreasonable to believe that God operates according to man's timeline, as he's done Biblically on other issues such as the Higher Law vs the 10 Commandments etc., so the priesthood in order to not be defiled by the evils of racism, bigotry, and the slavery of man, was denied to those who were under those conditions. Thus, it had nothing to do with racism "by" the Church, but racism in the world at large. God does nothing unless man is ready for it.
10. The possible initial beginnings of the ban were believed to be according to an interpretation of the scriptures. However, there is no sure sign of this, thus it's possible that it was simply the way things were interpreted after the fact in trying to find scriptural reasons for the ban. Given the lack of evidence, the ban may have been put in place by revelation that was never canonized, and then the assumptions followed after.
11. The LDS Church always had messages of tolerance, and love for others, including blacks, and it always taught "against" racism. Being first exposed to the LDS Church before the ban was lifted, I can testify that those in the Church and the Church itself was so "non-racist" in it's behaviors and teachings, that I didn't even know the ban existed until it was lifted. It was also along with the Catholic Church, had no sign of racism in it. Many of the other religions I had attended over the years, there was often some sort of racist thing uttered and feeling therein, even in a black congregation of another religion I had attended for a period.
12. Mormons always kicked out the KKK whenever they tried to settle in Utah. That doesn't give any indication that Mormons were racist. In fact it gives the opposite indication.
13. Blacks and all races have "always" been allowed to be members of the Church, there was no segregation either compared to most other faiths, all races in Mormonism have always fellowshipped and worshiped with each other. No one was placed in situations to feel "inferior" with their brethren.
14. Mormons, including the leadership of the Church always "lamented" the existence of the ban, but had Faith that one day the ban would be lifted. Such a common belief and view in the Church, even by it's leadership, again does not indicate a religion or a people who are "racist".
15. The ban was both a doctrine and a policy. The doctrine is that the priesthood is given of God according to His Will, and some of the possible commandments of such can be found in scripture, but given Latter-day Revelation, the Church is unsure whether those scriptures actually apply to the subject. The policy in this instance is that those of African Lineage were not to be given the Priesthood.
16. Mormons were "Abolitionists". In fact, several of the instances of Mormons being driven from place to place in it's early history was a great deal due to their Abolitionist views. Mormons were a large voting block, and there was a great deal of resentment by locals who were racist, as well as bigoted toward the Church itself because of this. Thus, it was not simply religious intolerance toward the Church that resulted in some of the early bigotry against the Church, it was also due to it's stance against racism.
Doctrine does not change, but Policy's do. Meaning that sometimes the "practices" that relate to certain doctrines are what changes, not the doctrines themselves. For example, the Law of Sacrifice. The doctrine is still the same, but the practice is now different, we no longer kill animals.
In conclusion, studies have shown that Mormons were no more "racist" than any other population of America, some were racist, some where ethno-centrist, but most were neither, and Mormons certainly were not anything close to those who were racist in the South for comparison. Mormons also were not racist to the degree many other religions were, in their segregation policy's, in their judgments of the black man, etc.
The Church itself also given the actual facts of the priesthood ban, was not "racist", but simply did what God said to do, and the Church could not do otherwise until He said otherwise. Had it been up to Mormons, the ban would have been lifted long before. But, God's Will is not man's Will in the LDS Church. We are led by God, not man.
It is true that some statements by LDS leaders were racist by our standards, some were ethno-centrist by our standards, and other statements are misconstrued and misused by critics, thus not actually racism, but something else is being stated. It is also true that some leaders made false assumptions in trying to "explain" the ban. However, none of these things were "doctrine" of the Church, and for that matter, were not believed by most of the Church, because after all, we have the scriptures and spirit ourselves. As a part of the checks and balances in the Church, the Church still remained intact and not led astray.
Further, if one looks at the totality of the statements and views of nearly ALL of those same individuals who made remarks that might give us pause today, we see men who were righteous men, me who were tolerant and respectful of minorities and otherwise.
It's a similar thing of there existing a few negative statements about other religions by some leaders in LDS history, well those same men a 100 times more often said good things about other religions and christians. One cannot judge a people nor especially a religion by quote mining the most negative statements, and then ignoring the rest which would give a more accurate perspective of their belief system, and then think one is being truthful. Ultimately, Mormons and especially the Church was not racist. Did some humans make some mistakes, yes. But, the Work is God's Work, and his work is above such human petty mistakes and foolishness. THAT is the important thing. It is a Glorious Work to be a part of.....
In conclusion, does the Church need and have any reason to apologize? Absolutely not....
It did nothing wrong. It cannot be blamed for the "ignorance" of anti-Mormons and the less informed Mormon or non-mormon that is ignorant of the actual practice and policy's of the ban, and scriptural history, who usually just ignorantly take the anti-mormon viewpoint of the issue at face value. AFter all, it seems racist at first look, so the Church must have been wrong. Hence the so-called claim and need people have to want the Church to apologize.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
-
_Drifting
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 7306
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am
Re: Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
ldsfaqs,
Can you show me the revelation or agreed scriptural reference or proclaimation that support's the Church's decision to withhold the Priesthood from people with African lineage up to 1978 or from women up to the present day?
Just to show that you are reflecting Church doctrine rather than just making stuff up.
Thanks, in anticipation
P.s. here's how the Prophet GBH handled a similar question...
Can you show me the revelation or agreed scriptural reference or proclaimation that support's the Church's decision to withhold the Priesthood from people with African lineage up to 1978 or from women up to the present day?
Just to show that you are reflecting Church doctrine rather than just making stuff up.
Thanks, in anticipation
P.s. here's how the Prophet GBH handled a similar question...
Why were Negroes banned from all Mormon temples and the Mormon priesthood for 130 years (1848-1978). This was asked by an Australian TV program called COMPASS to President Gordon B. Hinckley in 1997. Surely, President Hinckley, who worked for the Church full-time since 1930, would know the answer to this question.
COMPASS: Now up until 1978 I understand Blacks were not allowed to be priests in your Church?
Gordon B. Hinckley: That is correct. Although we have Black members of the Church. They felt that they would gain more in this Church than any other with which they were acquainted and they were members of the Church. In 1978 we (the president of the Church) received a revelation under which all worthy men would receive all the blessings of the Church available to them as well as to any others. So across the world now we are teaching the Gospel to Blacks, Whites, everyone else who will listen.
COMPASS: So in retrospect was the Church wrong in that?
Gordon B. Hinckley: No I don’t think it was wrong. It things, various things happened in different periods. There’s a reason for them.
DR: What was the reason for that?
COMPASS: I don’t know what the reason was. But I know that we’ve rectified whatever may have appeared to be wrong at that time.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
-
_subgenius
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 13326
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm
Re: Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
Tim wrote:Hey I hope you can check out this video I created. It's an issue barely any one is talking about, but . . . they will
http://youtu.be/9kd0N_4xM-o
correction.
it is actually not a problem...more like another disenfranchised opinion posted on YouTube. I believe the mountain-out-of-a-mole-hill will likely be applied by the overwhelming majority of people. It would seem that such energy could be focused on more productive endeavors, but i believe this particular YouTube Op-Ed will go by the wayside. Considering that just about every single American institution that has been around for at least 75 years has a "history of racism/sexism" i find it amusing as an attempted talking point.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
-
_Tim
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:57 am
Re: Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
I'm not holding Mitt Romney or the LDS church responsible for things said and done in the 1860's. I'm holding them responsible for the standards of 1977.
If it was a doctrine (or ecclesiastical matter) rather than a policy, please show me where in LDS scripture it says that the priesthood should be denied to all people of African descent.
If you can not, then you're just using a rhetorical device that puts the blame on God without backing it up. In my book that's a form of taking the name of the Lord in vain.
I'm more than willing to concede that the LDS church is no more and no less racist than any other organization. I'm willing to concede that there were black members who didn't mind (as there were blacks who didn't mind slavery). I'm willing to concede that the LDS church is a warm and accepting place for people of all races.
If it was a doctrine (or ecclesiastical matter) rather than a policy, please show me where in LDS scripture it says that the priesthood should be denied to all people of African descent.
If you can not, then you're just using a rhetorical device that puts the blame on God without backing it up. In my book that's a form of taking the name of the Lord in vain.
I'm more than willing to concede that the LDS church is no more and no less racist than any other organization. I'm willing to concede that there were black members who didn't mind (as there were blacks who didn't mind slavery). I'm willing to concede that the LDS church is a warm and accepting place for people of all races.
-
_subgenius
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 13326
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm
Re: Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
Tim wrote:I'm not holding Mitt Romney or the LDS church responsible for things said and done in the 1860's. I'm holding them responsible for the standards of 1977.
If it was a doctrine (or ecclesiastical matter) rather than a policy, please show me where in LDS scripture it says that the priesthood should be denied to all people of African descent.
If you can not, then you're just using a rhetorical device that puts the blame on God without backing it up. In my book that's a form of taking the name of the Lord in vain.
I'm more than willing to concede that the LDS church is no more and no less racist than any other organization. I'm willing to concede that there were black members who didn't mind (as there were blacks who didn't mind slavery). I'm willing to concede that the LDS church is a warm and accepting place for people of all races.
Do any of the outspoken critics on this forum actually have access to the scriptures?
I guess the easy answer is to reference chapter 9 of Genesis and the plight of Canaan, this has long been used to justify racism, For you surely understand that Noah cursed the son of Ham (the actual offender) and Ham has largely been attributed to being the father of most African and Middle eastern dark skinned people - this was the basis for slavery in the US, Jim Crow laws, and even Apartheid in south africa. You see this continue in Matthew 15:21 where the Canaanite women is the target of discrimination - particularly highlighted by Matthew 15:24.
see also exodus 33:16, Deut 7:3, Deut 23:2 (where the hebrew word for bastard is mistranslated, originally means "half-breed"), Acts 17:26, etc...
As for sexism...hmmm, let us see:
1 Cor 14 34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
or 1 Cor 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Timothy 2:11-13
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
or 1 Peter 3:7, or Ephesians 5:22-24, and etc.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
-
_Buffalo
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 12064
- Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm
Re: Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
Just one problem - the Canaanites were of the same race as the Hebrews. The Jews are just a branch of the Canaanites, really.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
-
_Melchett
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:05 pm
Re: Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
subgenius wrote:Do any of the outspoken critics on this forum actually have access to the scriptures?
I guess the easy answer is to reference chapter 9 of Genesis and the plight of Canaan, this has long been used to justify racism, For you surely understand that Noah cursed the son of Ham (the actual offender) and Ham has largely been attributed to being the father of most African and Middle eastern dark skinned people - this was the basis for slavery in the US, Jim Crow laws, and even Apartheid in south africa. You see this continue in Matthew 15:21 where the Canaanite women is the target of discrimination - particularly highlighted by Matthew 15:24.
see also exodus 33:16, Deut 7:3, Deut 23:2 (where the hebrew word for bastard is mistranslated, originally means "half-breed"), Acts 17:26, etc...
As for sexism...hmmm, let us see:
1 Cor 14 34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
or 1 Cor 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Timothy 2:11-13
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
or 1 Peter 3:7, or Ephesians 5:22-24, and etc.
What a wonderful book.
-
_Tim
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:57 am
Re: Mitt's Mormon Problem Explained
I know what verses were used to justify racist actions (all of them improperly used).
I'm looking for a passage or a revelation that said the priesthood should be denied to all people of African descent.
I'm looking for a passage or a revelation that said the priesthood should be denied to all people of African descent.