Nothing died in mortality prior to 4,000 bc.

[_Drifting]

Mormon doctrine (actively, consistently and officially taught) is that mortal death did not exist prior to the fall of Adam which, as taught by Mormonism, took place circa 4,000bc. Adam was the first flesh and therefore the first mortal person.

All the scientific evidence that dates animals and people dying to before 4,000bc must simply be wrong...

[_DrW]

Drifting,

You must know the drill by now. Simply pick one or more responses from the following list. Be sure to select those that make you feel better about this issue. (Remember, there are no wrong answers.)

1. The important point to remember is that the question of the scope of "death before the Fall" does not affect our salvation, and is simply an academic exercise.

2. The Church does not take an official position on this issue.

3. There is no official doctrine on the matter, and members in good standing have held both positions.

4. Does "no death" before the fall of Adam refer to the entire Earth or just the Garden of Eden?

For the benefit subgenius, and in the interest of full disclosure, the above listed responses are taken directly from:

Mormonism and science/Death before the Fall

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Death_before_the_Fall

(I kid you not.)

[_Drifting]

Drifting,

You must know the drill by now. Simply pick one or more responses from the following list. Be sure to select those that make you feel better about this issue. (Remember, there are no wrong answers.)

1. The important point to remember is that the question of the scope of "death before the Fall" does not affect our salvation, and is simply an academic exercise.

2. The Church does not take an official position on this issue.

3. There is no official doctrine on the matter, and members in good standing have held both positions.

4. Does "no death" before the fall of Adam refer to the entire Earth or just the Garden of Eden?

For the benefit subgenius, and in the interest of full disclosure, the above listed responses are taken directly from:

Mormonism and science/Death before the Fall

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Death_before_the_Fall

(I kid you not.)

Well 2 and 4 seem to be ruled out by what the Church teaches in Institute...

“So, Adam was the first man upon the earth, according to the Lord’s statement, and the first flesh also. That needs a little explanation.

“Adam did not come to this earth until it was prepared for him. The animals were here. Plants were here. The Lord did not bring him here to a desolate world, and then bring other creatures. It was all prepared for him, just according to the order that is written in our scriptures, and when it was all ready for Adam he was placed upon the earth.

“Then what is meant by the ‘first flesh’? It is simple when you understand it. Adam was the first of all creatures to fall and become flesh, and flesh in this sense means mortality, and all through our scriptures the Lord speaks of this life as flesh, while we are here in the flesh, so Adam became the first flesh. There was no other mortal creature before him, and there was no mortal death until he brought it, and the scriptures tell you that. It is here written, and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ.” ( Seek Ye Earnestly, pp. 280–81.)

[_DrW]

Well 2 and 4 seem to be ruled out by what the Church teaches in Institute...

“So, Adam was the first man upon the earth, according to the Lord’s statement, and the first flesh also. That needs a little explanation.

“Adam did not come to this earth until it was prepared for him. The animals were here. Plants were here. The Lord did not bring him here to a desolate world, and then bring other creatures. It was all prepared for him, just according to the order that is written in our scriptures, and when it was all ready for Adam he was placed upon the earth.

“Then what is meant by the ‘first flesh’? It is simple when you understand it. Adam was the first of all creatures to fall and become flesh, and flesh in this sense means mortality, and all through our scriptures the Lord speaks of this life as flesh, while we are here in the flesh, so Adam became the first flesh. There was no other mortal creature before him, and there was no mortal death until he brought it, and the scriptures tell you that. It is here written, and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ.” ( Seek Ye Earnestly, pp. 280–81.)

With apologies in advance, this was taken from a post of mine on another board. It seems entirely appropriate here.

Don't quote the book. It is only speaking as a man(ual).
Deardorff

So, don't quote the book.

"No matter how brilliant he may be and no matter how many new truths he may think he has found, he has no right to go beyond the program of the Church." Dalin H. Oaks, in the Ensign, November 1999.

And, don't use anything not found in the book.
___________________________

Looks like that about covers it.

So, what was your problem again?

[_Drifting]

So...

In summary...

You shouldn't believe the institute manual and,
You should only believe the institute manual.

Got it...

[_aranyborju]

So...

In summary...

You shouldn't believe the institute manual and,
You should only believe the institute manual.

Got it...

Glad we got that cleared up.

[_bcspace]

Mormon doctrine (actively, consistently and officially taught) is that mortal death did not exist prior to the fall of Adam which, as taught by Mormonism, took place circa 4,000bc. Adam was the first flesh and therefore the first mortal person.

All the scientific evidence that dates animals and people dying to before 4,000bc must simply be wrong...

It is true that the doctrine is that there is no death before the Fall. But it is also equally true that one can have death before the garden state and still say there was no death before the Fall because the garden state (of no death) was directly before the Fall.

So no, LDS doctrine does not preclude evolution or pre Adamite races of homo sapiens etc. and one can accept all science on the issue without being in conflict with LDS doctrine.

[_DrW]

Mormon doctrine (actively, consistently and officially taught) is that mortal death did not exist prior to the fall of Adam which, as taught by Mormonism, took place circa 4,000bc. Adam was the first flesh and therefore the first mortal person.

All the scientific evidence that dates animals and people dying to before 4,000bc must simply be wrong...

It is true that the doctrine is that there is no death before the Fall. But it is also equally true that one can have death before the garden state and still say there was no death before the Fall because the garden state (of no death) was directly before the Fall.

Sorry, but I just must ask you once again - where do you come up with this stuff? You must sit around all day drawing little diagrams on post-it notes, and then cherry-pick words and phrases and twist their normal meanings in your own special way to come up with some of the patently ridiculous things you say.

So no, LDS doctrine does not preclude evolution or pre Adamite races of homo sapiens etc. and one can accept all science on the issue without being in conflict with LDS doctrine.

Like I said - .

[_Morley]

Mormon doctrine (actively, consistently and officially taught) is that mortal death did not exist prior to the fall of Adam which, as taught by Mormonism, took place circa 4,000bc. Adam was the first flesh and therefore the first mortal person.

All the scientific evidence that dates animals and people dying to before 4,000bc must simply be wrong...

It is true that the doctrine is that there is no death before the Fall. But it is also equally true that one can have death before the garden state and still say there was no death before the Fall because the garden state (of no death) was directly before the Fall.

So no, LDS doctrine does not preclude evolution or pre Adamite races of homo sapiens etc. and one can accept all science on the issue without being in conflict with LDS doctrine.

BC. Two questions:

1) Death was suspended during the Garden State and then began again when Adam and Eve left the Garden?

2) We're all descended from Adam and Eve of 6,000 years ago?

[_DrW]

So no, LDS doctrine does not preclude evolution or pre Adamite races of homo sapiens etc. and one can accept all science on the issue without being in conflict with LDS doctrine.

BC,

Have you taken even a minute to try to work out a natural history and hominid evolution timeline to go with your per-Adamite / evolutionary theory-friendly version of the Hebrew creation myth as found in the Old Testament and the analogous LDS creation myth as found in the Book of Abraham?

If so, have you kept in mind while doing this that the LDS Church teaches the Garden of Eden was actually located in Daviss County, MO?

Remember, in order to be competitive with the secular and scientific natural history and evolution narratives, your version of the Hebrew creation myth and LDS doctrine must account for at least as much archeological and population genetics data as does the mainstream scientific narrative.

If you have been able to accomplish this heroic apologetic feat, I would love to see the results.