Swedenborg...

[Guest]

http://craigwmiller.tripod.com/interest.htm

It would seem that Joseph Smith was not the first Prophet of the Restoration....

[_Tobin]

http://craigwmiller.tripod.com/interest.htm
It would seem that Joseph Smith was not the first Prophetr of the Restoration....

Pffft, everyone knows Joseph Smith invented the internet too. Seriously though, I'm getting tired of all the boogey-man scenarios about Joseph Smith and crack-pot theories about how he may have done it. It is really turning into a game of Clue. There is even a story of a boy that parallels the first-vision story almost exactly at almost the same time. I would just point out, there were many people that claimed to be the Messiah at the time of Jesus Christ as well. At a certain point, you need to either speak with God about what is what or just decide that none of it is true and find a new hobby - maybe playing Clue instead?

[_Drifting]

At a certain point, you need to either speak with God about what is what or just decide that none of it is true and find a new hobby - maybe playing Clue instead?

I did, He told me Mormonism is a fraud - was He wrong?

I find the parrallels between what Swedenborg taught and what Joseph Smith restored, strikingly similar.

1. There are three heavens (D&C 76, Heaven and Hell chapter 5). Swedenborg divided the heavens into three: celestial, spiritual, and natural, with divisions so absolute that direct communication is generally not possible without divine help. Those of lower heavens in general cannot see the inhabitants of the higher heavens. Communication does occur between higher and lower realms, but those of the lower heavens are, in general, not so aware of its occurrence. The communication originates from what Swedenborg calls Acorrespondences,@ which are in the nature of the relationship of a symbol or allegory and which are a central feature of all creation, providing the means by which higher or more inner degrees of reality, beginning with God Himself, are related, typically in cause and effect fashion, to lower, more external degrees. The LDS parallel of Swedenborg=s heavens are the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial heavens. Swedenborg=s terms for the heavens are all biblical, and can be found in the scriptures that Mormons believe refer to these heavens, 1 Cor 15:40-42.[8] The counterpart of Swedenborg=s spiritual heaven is the LDS terrestrial heaven, which despite its name, is not depicted as being earthlike in LDS scripture. To describe the lowest of the heavens Joseph Smith invented a new term, telestial. Swedenborg stated that the heavens were arranged in layers around the central Sun of heaven, or the Lord God Jesus Christ. The natural heaven is the furthest from the center.

2. Priesthood robes are worn in heavenly marriage ceremonies. Swedenborg witnessed a marriage ceremony in heaven in which the husband wore robes like those of Aaron while the wife was arrayed as a queen. (D&C 131:2, Conjugial Love 20, 21). LDS doctrine mostly speaks of two orders of the priesthood, the Melchizedek and Aaronic, but also speaks of the patriarchal order as another order of the priesthood (D&C 132). Swedenborg=s description of the attire of the heavenly couple in the marriage ceremony of Cojugial Love 21 will strike a chord with all Mormons who have witnessed a temple marriage.[9]

3. There are three heavens in the celestial glory or kingdom (D&C 131:1, Arcana Coelestia 9993). Swedenborg states that there are three heavens, the celestial, spiritual and natural, and two kingdoms of heaven, the celestial and the spiritual. The organizational relationship between the three heavens and two kingdoms is complex and has long been a source of discussion among students of Swedenborg. In Arcana Coelestia 9993 [2], Swedenborg states that the celestial kingdom has three divisions, and also stated in Arcana Coelestia 5922 [2] that the celestial kingdom is the celestial heaven. Through the Lord=s direction and by means of angels that communicate between them they act in unison. Mormons understand D&C 131:1 to mean that the celestial heaven, Aglory@ in D&C 131:1, is divided into three heavens. Swedenborg also used the word Aglory@ to refer to kingdoms, Arcana Coelestia 5922 [2]. While, again, the exact interpretation of the three heavens-two kingdoms distinction remains a matter of discussion in the New Church, the parallels with LDS doctrine are still obvious.

[_Tobin]

At a certain point, you need to either speak with God about what is what or just decide that none of it is true and find a new hobby - maybe playing Clue instead?

I did, He told me Mormonism is a fraud - was He wrong?

I find the parrallels between what Swedenborg taught and what Joseph Smith restored, strikingly similar.

Oh, and what did God say about Swedenborg? We could start a new religion if it is true - we'll call it the Borg.

[_Drifting]

Oh, and what did God say about Swedenborg? We could start a new religion if it is true - we'll call it the Borg.

I'm still plucking up the courage to ask Him. He's still awfully cheesed off with me over my being duped by Mormonism.

I suspect Swedenborg's religion was also man made - but that's not the point.
The point is that Swedenborg was already talking about some of specific doctrine that Joseph supposedly restored.

Now either Joseph copied him, or Swedeborg got very lucky without God's help on an awful lot of Mormon doctrine.

[_Tobin]

Oh, and what did God say about Swedenborg? We could start a new religion if it is true - we'll call it the Borg.

I'm still plucking up the courage to ask Him. He's still awfully cheesed off with me over my being duped by Mormonism.

I suspect Swedenborg's religion was also man made - but that's not the point.
The point is that Swedenborg was already talking about some of specific doctrine that Joseph supposedly restored.

Now either Joseph copied him, or Swedeborg got very lucky without God's help on an awful lot of Mormon doctrine.

Oh, I read things like this every now and then. Joseph Smith must have got this and that from so-and-so, doesn't this sound similar - it must have come from over here. Usually there isn't any proof what-so-ever that any of it is true and so it isn't worth taking seriously. If you find a copy of Swedenborg's writings in Joseph Smith's things, let me know. Otherwise, it is interesting, but pretty much a sideshow.

[_MCB]

What he taught about any preacher who taught polygamy was pretty harsh, perhaps prophetic.

Spiritual diary p. 66
That preacher was at length changed as to his face, and having become fiery yet black, his body clothed in white, in this black and deformed aspect he was carried about and exhibited to spirits and angels, (that they might know) how vile a man he was; and because he deemed that his conduct was for the sake of offspring, he represented to himself something like an offspring, which was seen; but, as in the case of a young child, his head was enveloped round about and made as it were black, thus rendering his face more deformed. At length he represented to himself that the innocent were participators with him, for these he was in the practice of substituting, that he might screen himself. He then scraped together whatever he
could from the Word-- some things respecting David, and others respecting the pre-Adamites, – which I had not before heard; and his whole body being then again enveloped, and presenting thus enwrapped a dusky aspect, the entire front of his person, from his head downwards, became, as it were, an elongated face, which added vastly to his deformity. Afterwards he was torn and rent by his tormentors, but still not very cruelly, and placed against a column, when his face appeared only of its natural dimensions, but unsightly, from a cadaverous hue.

[_subgenius]

It would seem that Joseph Smith was not the first Prophet of the Restoration....

Glad to see you concede that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet....thank you.
The Swedenborg angle is hardly new.
Either we are giving Joseph Smith an incredible amount of credit for having a vast and worldly knowledge of religion and philosophy at such a young age...or we are recognizing that Inspiration was indeed the source.
So ,what is your post teaching us?

First, there is not a a common source for both Swedenborg and Joseph Smith - unless you mean that the Bible was....ie. the 3 degrees of heaven is clearly is in Matthew, John, 1 Cor 15, etc..

Second, since Swedenborg was hardly unknown...why did no one notice these alleged similarities back in the day - i mean Joseph Smith was accused of borrowing from Spaulding, Ethan Smith, etc...but no Swedenborg....why?
Its no secret that people criticized both of them as being "false prophets", but none ever mentioned any "similarities" in teachings.....hmmm...most likely because these similarities were indeed superficial, in reality there are many deep differences.
It is certainly possible for anyone to have had revelations prior to Joseph Smith, even in times of apostasy. Had Swedenborg's church been correct then the subsequent revelations to Joseph Smith would have been unnecessary.
One of the best things Swedenborg does, as do others, is contrast the manner by which Joseph Smith acted upon his vision - by staying on the path of the world and its churches - they preached the Bible under their own interpretations that came from their visions. Others received a vision, felt called to preach of Christ, took the Bible, and taught others from it - One has to seriously consider that between 1783 ane 1815 over 32 published accounts of visions occurred....but Joseph Smith was distinctive from the rest.

I believe Joseph Smith was somewhat familiar with Swedenborg, but the point is best summarized when Joseph Smith wrote (allegedly)
"Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished."

About all Miller, and you, have done is affirm the obvious....that the Old Testament and New Testament inspired people towards an obvious truth of things.

[_Franktalk]

We should be able to see if this group has fruit.

First a picture of the movement.

"The Lord's New Church is primarily associated with South Africa, although roughly 200 members are found in the United States. It is noted for its concern for social justice. The nations of Australia and Germany are estimated to have 504 and 200 members, respectively. Counting additional members in Asia, Africa, and South America, current sources put the total number of Swedenborgians between 25,000 and 30,000."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Church

But numbers don't represent truth.

I did a search of Mormon charities and found many. I did a search of Swedenborg charities and found none. Unless someone can show me where these people act as servants to the Lord I have to put them aside. A wise man once said:

Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

[_MCB]

Yes, subgenius, this is the reason why anti-Mormons rarely bring up the subject. However, Swedenborg's obvious schizophrenia was really not that much different from Joseph Smith's constantly changing theology and ethics.