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No thinking required...

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:42 pm
by _Alfredo
I'm confused.

D&C 8:9
But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

For what rational purpose is the command to "study" given, which is not simply fulfilled (or overthrown) by asking and accepting God's answer?

I find it very suspicious that this suggests the term "study" must be used to fulfill some irrational purpose, yet what possible irrational purpose is not similarly supplanted by feeling it is right?

It seems that, given the end result, there is no purpose to "study", at all.

Re: No thinking required...

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:54 pm
by _Drifting
Alfredo wrote:I'm confused.

D&C 8:9
But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

For what rational purpose is the command to "study" given, which is not simply fulfilled (or overthrown) by asking and accepting God's answer?

I find it very suspicious that this suggests the term "study" must be used to fulfill some irrational purpose, yet what possible irrational purpose is not similarly supplanted by feeling it is right?

It seems that, given the end result, there is no purpose to "study", at all.


It's disingenuous.
Mormonism wants you to study only as long and untill you agree with Mormonism.

I read the Book of Mormon, studied it out in my mind and reached the conclusion it was false. I prayed about that decision and God confirmed it by causing my bosom to burn.
But guess what, Mormon's will not accept my experience as correct.

The studying, the burning bosom etc etc are irrelevant within Mormonism. Unless you agree with Mormonism, no matter how closely you have followed instructions, no matter how much your bosom has burned, you are wrong.

Re: No thinking required...

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:21 pm
by _subgenius
Drifting wrote:
It's disingenuous.

of which you are a master at being.

Mormonism wants you to study only as long and untill you agree with Mormonism.

not true

I read the Book of Mormon, studied it out in my mind and reached the conclusion it was false. I prayed about that decision and God confirmed it by causing my bosom to burn.
But guess what, Mormon's will not accept my experience as correct.

not true. i consider your experience to be valid and i most certainly accept it. There is no doubt in my mind that you received said confirmation.
It is the appropriate answer for you to have received - that is obvious.

The studying, the burning bosom etc etc are irrelevant within Mormonism. Unless you agree with Mormonism, no matter how closely you have followed instructions, no matter how much your bosom has burned, you are wrong.

not true. your cynicism is showing again.

Re: No thinking required...

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:22 pm
by _subgenius
Alfredo wrote:I'm confused. ....

agreed

Re: No thinking required...

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:55 pm
by _Hades
Drifting wrote:I read the Book of Mormon, studied it out in my mind and reached the conclusion it was false. I prayed about that decision and God confirmed it by causing my bosom to burn.
But guess what, Mormon's will not accept my experience as correct.

The studying, the burning bosom etc etc are irrelevant within Mormonism. Unless you agree with Mormonism, no matter how closely you have followed instructions, no matter how much your bosom has burned, you are wrong.

Satan made your bosom burn. We know that because you got the wrong answer. If you had gotten the right answer, then it would have been the Holy Ghost who made your bosom burn.

Re: No thinking required...

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:18 pm
by _Alfredo
subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:
It's disingenuous.

of which you are a master at being.

Mormonism wants you to study only as long and untill you agree with Mormonism.

not true

I read the Book of Mormon, studied it out in my mind and reached the conclusion it was false. I prayed about that decision and God confirmed it by causing my bosom to burn.
But guess what, Mormon's will not accept my experience as correct.

not true. i consider your experience to be valid and i most certainly accept it. There is no doubt in my mind that you received said confirmation.
It is the appropriate answer for you to have received - that is obvious.

The studying, the burning bosom etc etc are irrelevant within Mormonism. Unless you agree with Mormonism, no matter how closely you have followed instructions, no matter how much your bosom has burned, you are wrong.

not true. your cynicism is showing again.

Ha. Are you suggesting that Mormons can accept his "confirmation"... but only on the unmentioned condition that it be considered a deception invented by the Devil or man, will suppress his true and spiritual nature as a Child of God, and eventually disqualify him from several extremely desirable eternal blessings others will enjoy for babillions and gazillions of generations and then tenhundredbabilliongazillions more???

That is, a "confirmation" of how lost he is?

What a reasonable and open-minded compromise. I admire the respect you have for his beliefs in spite of their evil origins and the eternal significance they have on his soul.

Re: No thinking required...

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:26 pm
by _Alfredo
Drifting wrote:It's disingenuous.
Mormonism wants you to study only as long and untill you agree with Mormonism.

My thoughts, as well.

A self-serving paradigm designed to explain everything. Every strong belief to maintain in order to keep your mind closed is contained within one simple, convenient, and emotionally-charged worldview.

Re: No thinking required...

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:56 pm
by _tomk
Alfredo wrote:I'm confused.

D&C 8:9
But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

For what rational purpose is the command to "study" given, which is not simply fulfilled (or overthrown) by asking and accepting God's answer?

I find it very suspicious that this suggests the term "study" must be used to fulfill some irrational purpose, yet what possible irrational purpose is not similarly supplanted by feeling it is right?

It seems that, given the end result, there is no purpose to "study", at all.


The Lord is describing the relationship between Faith and Works.

Study and Revelation are not mutually exclusive. They are two blades of a pair of scissors, both necessary for the job to get done. Faith precedes the Miracle. Study, in this context, is an act of faith. It is us doing our part which then signals the Lord that He can do His part.


Let me quote the relevant verses here:

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.


1) Study it out in your mind.

I think this is simply suggesting that the Lord does not want us to simply ask Him for the answer without giving it some thought first (see verse 7). We don't need to ask Him if He would like us to stop smoking or drinking. He has already spoken on the matter, and common sense also tells us these habits are not very healthy.

The Lord has blessed us with a conscience and an intellect. He expects us to employ them as a necessary part of getting an answer from Him.

More to the point, I think the Lord is probably talking about things that have no clear or obvious answer. In this case the question at hand was translating the Book of Mormon. It was not just to be had for the asking. I am sure the Lord expected Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith to study available material on translation, to pay attention to patterns and language constructs, to memorize symbols that they encountered over and over to aid with translation. To be engaged in the process - not just ask the Lord to hand them the translated book with no effort on their parts.

Also - the Lord holds our agency sacred. Studying something out in our minds is a token of our faith and a token of our desire to get an answer from Him. We are saying - Look, Lord, I am following your commandment. I am doing it the way you have given to us."

2) Ask if it is right.

To me, this suggests that we have already made a decision as to the course to pursue. We've studied it out in our minds. We have weighed the pros and cons and thought about the impact on ourselves and our family and friends (perhaps). Having done that, and made a decision, we now go to the Lord for confirmation.

3) The Lord tells us how He will tell us YES:

and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.


4) The Lord tells us how we will tell us NO:

But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong;

-No such feelings.
-A stupor of thought that will cause us to forget the thing which is wrong.





Thinking IS required! But we are commanded to not take it too far the other way and rely ONLY upon our own intellect. The Lord wants a mix - some effort and faith on our part combined with asking and receiving a yes or a no. Only doing ONE or the OTHER is not the right way. Both must be involved.

Re: No thinking required...

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 am
by _Alfredo
Study and Revelation are not mutually exclusive. They are two blades of a pair of scissors, both necessary for the job to get done.


The "study" blade is only necessary as a step towards the "revelation" blade. They don't work together, one works towards the other.

There is no "thinking about how to discover truth" required to accept that revelation discovers truth and this is extremely suspect. If revelation is truth, then it is undeniable that there can be no valid criticism of revealed truth. If there can be no valid criticism of revealed truth, is this not reason for us to be skeptical of claims to revealed truth which require no critical thought to be accepted?

If a revelation is not true, then only critical thought will discover it. What are we to think if we accept that "no critique of revealed truth is valid" is itself a revealed truth that no critique is necessary to accept?

We should be skeptical of whether criticism actually applies to the revealed truth which is defended as immune to application of criticism and accepted with the suspicious absence of critical application.

We are to suspect that it pretends to immunity.

Re: No thinking required...

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:09 pm
by _subgenius
Alfredo wrote:Ha. Are you suggesting that Mormons can accept his "confirmation"... but only on the unmentioned condition that it be considered a deception invented by the Devil or man, will suppress his true and spiritual nature as a Child of God, and eventually disqualify him from several extremely desirable eternal blessings others will enjoy for babillions and gazillions of generations and then tenhundredbabilliongazillions more???

unspoken condition??? what are you talking about? my post was clear and concise and without condition. What motivates you to impose statements which i have clearly not made?


That is, a "confirmation" of how lost he is?

i have never accused him of being lost, nor did i even imply it here. that is an idea of your own creation....i can't help but wonder why?

What a reasonable and open-minded compromise. I admire the respect you have for his beliefs in spite of their evil origins and the eternal significance they have on his soul.

what an incredibly immature and amateur statement for you to have made. First you fabricate statements that i obviously did not make, and then condemn me for them.
i think we know who is lost my friend...and it ain't me or Drift.