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It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:46 pm
by _bcuzbcuz
The Book of Mormon is supposed to be holy scripture. It is supposed to be a second testimony of Christ. It is supposed to document the lives of the inhabitants of the Americas from 600 B.C. to 421 A.D. (I lifted that straight from LDS.org)

But the inhabitants of the Americas are nowhere to be found in this book. I've followed various arguments on this site that nimbly play around with where these inhabitants were supposed to live. Apparently Mormons are equally happy if they lived in Panama or New York State.

I've read arguments about the weapons and animals that did or didn't exist alongside these inhabitants. Mormons appear to be happy with these inhabitants either fighting with steel swords or fighting with wooden sticks called "steel swords".

So I'll address my post to those willing to look a bit deeper into the lives of the real inhabitants of the Americas, and we'll dig just deep enough to get 15 cm (6 inches) under the topsoil.

The first thing we must put together for a Mormon picnic is, of course, a potato salad. The humble potato. Apparently just deep enough under the soil that no Nephite or Lamanite or Jaredite ever found them. The potato isn't even given a side note anywhere in the Book of Mormon. In fact, even the most ardent of scripture searchers cannot find any plant mentioned in the Book of Mormon that comes even close to describing the potato, either by name or similarity. I want a good old fashioned potato; baked, boiled or fried.

Let's take a closer look at the potato.
http://www.thehungrybutterfly.com/wp-co ... ground.jpg
Most of us would be happy with the five or so common varieties of potatoes we can buy in the local store. But before Columbus ever touched the shores of the Americas the natives of Peru and Chilé had over 4000 varieties of potatoes. (That's 4 zero zero zero)
http://www.primalseeds.org/g/1andeanspud.jpg

Granted, Columbus didn't ever meet the Inca peoples, but the potato was well distributed throughout Central America and into Mexico. The sweet potato is not a potato (sorry to disillusion anyone here) but it was distributed up into the prairie States and apparently was served to the starving pilgrims at Cape Cod. (Sweet potatoes aren't mentioned in the Book of Mormon either)

Anyone who wishes to do a little research into potatoes can start with the many and varied lists found all over the internet. http://www.potato2008.org/en/potato/varieties.html (the pictures and recipes at this site are great)
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/plants/pota ... 9172577580 (start with A and run through Z.....but you'll probably get tired after potato 500)
http://tawty.com/usatopvarieties.html

Let's move on. How about a picnic lunch that includes some turkey? White meat or dark? Don't you just love succulent thin sliced turkey breast meat, flavored with a sage spicing? Or are you a thigh kind of guy? Oops, Book of Mormon doesn't mention turkey either. Now how did the Nephites and Lamanites miss such a big bird? Gobble, gobble. No turkeys. (sage is also native to the Americas, but I'll skip over that for the time being)

What picnic would be a picnic without corn on the cob? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sw ... _varieties
(This Wikipedia page has 125 sorts of sweet corn....but many of them are modern creations)

However, most corn varieties are more starchy than sweet.http://images.travelpod.com/tripwow/pho ... w-3575.jpg

Corn, or maize, as it was originally called, is believed to originate in Central America or Mexico. Somewhere around 7,500 years ago (or maybe even 12,000 years ago) corn was domesticated. Stone milling tools with maize residues have been found in 8,700 year old deposits. Pollen remains go back even further.

When the spaniards arrived in the Americas they found the native inhabitants using a wide variety of corn products. Yup, they even had popcorn! Not to mention tortillas and tamales. They had meat tamales, turkey tamales, frog tamales, rabbit tamales, gopher tamales, fruit tamales, cooked beans tamales, salted wide tamales, crumbled, pounded tamales, braised tamales, plain tamales, honey tamales, bee tamales, insect tamales....had enough? They had squash tamales, maize flower tamales, sour tamales, turkey egg tamales, tamales of tender maize, tamales of green maize, brick shaped tamales, chili tamales.....they even had a market for old, rotten tamales for the very poor.

How do we know this? Father Sahagun wrote it all down in 1530! That's 40 years after Columbus found the place. So the Aztec people didn't invent the tamale market for the Spanish tourists. Look it up yourself and get the full list of tamales, (yes, there are many more), at
http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodmaya.html
Look under the Aztec section.

Oh, and do we find corn or maize mentioned in the Book of Mormon? One guess.

That leaves our Mormon picnic with no potato salad, no turkey, no corn.

I could go on. I will. It's just too delicious to resist.

In the Book of Mormon we find no squash, no pumpkins (does that mean the Nephites didn't have Hallowe'en?), no tomatoes, no avocados, no chili peppers, no cactus pears, no zapotes (huh?), no tomatillos, no peanuts, no vanilla, and, AND!!! No Chocolate! "Chocolate was prepared by grinding toasted cacao beans, sometimes with parched corn, and then mixing the powder with water. This was beaten with a wooden whisk until foamy and flavored with vanilla orchid pods or sweetened with honey. Like tea and coffee, this beverage is rich in caffein and was much prized in ancient Mesoamerica".
---The Aztecs, Richard F. Townsend [Thames and Hudson:London], revised edition 2000 (p. 180-1)

One more thing. For our picnic we probably want a nice cotton tablecloth. The Nephites could have brought cotton seeds with them from the Indus River Valley but cotton was already in the Americas about 6000 years ahead of their arrival. Is cotton mentioned in the Book of Mormon?

OK, I'm done. All those who wish to comment on this post, fire away.

Re: It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:57 pm
by _Tobin
Uhm bcuzbcuz, the Book of Mormon is a religious text, not an exhaustive text on agricultural products of ancient America. It is like disputing the Bible is true because if fails to mention carrots, celery and onions (staples commonly grown in the ancient middle east).

Re: It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:08 pm
by _Drifting
Tobin wrote:Uhm bcuzbcuz, the Book of Mormon is a religious text, not an exhaustive text on agricultural products of ancient America. It is like disputing the Bible is true because if fails to mention carrots, celery and onions (staples commonly grown in the ancient middle east).


I don't think the Book of Mormon's biggest problems of credibility lie within what it doesn't mention......

Re: It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:25 pm
by _Buffalo
Tobin wrote:Uhm bcuzbcuz, the Book of Mormon is a religious text, not an exhaustive text on agricultural products of ancient America. It is like disputing the Bible is true because if fails to mention carrots, celery and onions (staples commonly grown in the ancient middle east).


The food items it does mention are wrong.

Re: It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:33 pm
by _bcuzbcuz
Tobin wrote:Uhm bcuzbcuz, the Book of Mormon is a religious text, not an exhaustive text on agricultural products of ancient America. It is like disputing the Bible is true because if fails to mention carrots, celery and onions (staples commonly grown in the ancient middle east).


The Bible lists:
Seasonings, Spices and Herbs

Anise (Matthew 23:23 KJV)
Coriander (Exodus 16:31; Numbers 11:7)
Cinnamon (Exodus 30:23; Revelation 18:13)
Cumin (Isaiah 28:25; Matthew 23:23)
Dill (Matthew 23:23)
Garlic (Numbers 11:5)
Mint (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42)
Mustard (Matthew 13:31)
Rue (Luke 11:42)
Salt (Ezra 6:9; Job 6:6)

Fruits and Nuts

Apples (Song of Solomon 2:5)
Almonds (Genesis 43:11; Numbers 17:8)
Dates (2 Samuel 6:19; 1 Chronicles 16:3)
Figs (Nehemiah 13:15; Jeremiah 24:1-3)
Grapes (Leviticus 19:10; Deuteronomy 23:24)
Melons (Numbers 11:5; Isaiah 1:8)
Olives (Isaiah 17:6; Micah 6:15)
Pistachio Nuts (Genesis 43:11)
Pomegranates (Numbers 20:5; Deuteronomy 8:8)
Raisins (Numbers 6:3; 2 Samuel 6:19)
Sycamore Fruit (Psalm 78:47; Amos 7:14)

Vegetables and Legumes

Beans (2 Samuel 17:28; Ezekiel 4:9)
Cucumbers (Numbers 11:5)
Gourds (2 Kings 4:39)
Leeks (Numbers 11:5)
Lentils (Genesis 25:34; 2 Samuel 17:28; Ezekiel 4:9)
Onions (Numbers 11:5)

Grains

Barley (Deuteronomy 8:8; Ezekiel 4:9)
Bread (Genesis 25:34; 2 Samuel 6:19; 16:1; Mark 8:14)
Corn (Matthew 12:1; KJV - refers to "grain" such as wheat or barley)
Flour (2 Samuel 17:28; 1 Kings 17:12)
Millet (Ezekiel 4:9)
Spelt (Ezekiel 4:9)
Unleavened Bread (Genesis 19:3; Exodus 12:20)
Wheat (Ezra 6:9; Deuteronomy 8:8)

Fish

Matthew 15:36
John 21:11-13

Fowl

Partridge (1 Samuel 26:20; Jeremiah 17:11)
Pigeon (Genesis 15:9; Leviticus 12:8)
Quail (Psalm 105:40)
Dove (Leviticus 12:8)

Animal Meats

Calf (Proverbs 15:17; Luke 15:23)
Goat (Genesis 27:9)
Lamb (2 Samuel 12:4)
Oxen (1 Kings 19:21)
Sheep (Deuteronomy 14:4)
Venison (Genesis 27:7 KJV)

Dairy

Butter (Proverbs 30:33)
Cheese (2 Samuel 17:29; Job 10:10)
Curds (Isaiah 7:15)
Milk (Exodus 33:3; Job 10:10; Judges 5:25)

Miscellaneous

Eggs (Job 6:6; Luke 11:12)
Grape Juice (Numbers 6:3)
Honey (Exodus 33:3; Deuteronomy 8:8; Judges 14:8-9)
Locust (Mark 1:6)
Olive Oil (Ezra 6:9; Deuteronomy 8:8)
Vinegar (Ruth 2:14; John 19:29)
Wine (Ezra 6:9; John 2:1-10)

Sorry, onions are listed, as well as leeks. But you're right, carrots and celery aren't.

The Book of Mormon lists many animals that would be food. Sheep and goats spring to mind. But it mentions the ass (donkey), bees, the cow, the elephant, the horse, silkworms, and swine (pigs), as well. None of which existed prior to Columbus. Wheat and barley and all manner of fruits are also mentioned.

Oh and I did find the word corn Mosiah 9. I won't argue whether that means maize or wheat, as the word is used in England.

Re: It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:47 pm
by _Tobin
bcuzbcuz wrote:Sorry, onions are listed, as well as leeks. But you're right, carrots and celery aren't.
The Book of Mormon lists many animals that would be food. Sheep and goats spring to mind. But it mentions the ass (donkey), bees, the cow, the elephant, the horse, silkworms, and swine (pigs), as well. None of which existed prior to Columbus. Wheat and barley and all manner of fruits are also mentioned.
Oh and I did find the word corn Mosiah 9. I won't argue whether that means maize or wheat, as the word is used in England.
Hmmm, my online Bible dictionary didn't find it when I did a word check for onions, but you are right - it is in that verse. Teaches me to trust computers. But, I hope you get my point. This is not a good test of if the Book of Mormon is true or not. The only valid test in my opinion is what God tells you to believe.

Re: It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:51 pm
by _Drifting
Tobin wrote:
bcuzbcuz wrote:Sorry, onions are listed, as well as leeks. But you're right, carrots and celery aren't.
The Book of Mormon lists many animals that would be food. Sheep and goats spring to mind. But it mentions the ass (donkey), bees, the cow, the elephant, the horse, silkworms, and swine (pigs), as well. None of which existed prior to Columbus. Wheat and barley and all manner of fruits are also mentioned.
Oh and I did find the word corn Mosiah 9. I won't argue whether that means maize or wheat, as the word is used in England.
Hmmm, my online Bible dictionary didn't find it when I did a word check for onions, but you are right - it is in that verse. Teaches me to trust computers. But, I hope you get my point. This is not a good test of if the Book of Mormon is true or not. The only valid test in my opinion is what God tells you to believe.


Sadly, 'the only valid test' produces catastrophically poor numbers of 'passes'.

Re: It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:05 pm
by _Buffalo
Tobin wrote:Hmmm, my online Bible dictionary didn't find it when I did a word check for onions, but you are right - it is in that verse. Teaches me to trust computers. But, I hope you get my point. This is not a good test of if the Book of Mormon is true or not. The only valid test in my opinion is what God tells you to believe.


That's the least valid test I can think of.

Re: It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:16 pm
by _bcuzbcuz
Tobin wrote:Hmmm, my online Bible dictionary didn't find it when I did a word check for onions, but you are right - it is in that verse. Teaches me to trust computers. But, I hope you get my point. This is not a good test of if the Book of Mormon is true or not. The only valid test in my opinion is what God tells you to believe.


I would assume no one uses potatoes as a reason to not believe in the Book of Mormon. Most certainly, when I read both the Old and New Testaments and the Book of Mormon I wasn't thinking vegetables. But now, with the clarity of hindsight, I see the gaps in the stories.

Joseph Smith put together a coarse, rough outline of a story that gained notoriety precisely because he claimed it was scripture. Now I can read it like I read Von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods" or L. Ron Hubbard's "Dianetics".

Your valid test of the Book of Mormon is as misplaced as trust in computers.

Re: It's Mormon Picnic Time

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:23 pm
by _Tobin
Buffalo wrote:That's the least valid test I can think of.
Of course you do Buffalo. Your lack of faith in God is also not my problem.